Looking for a guide

[Josephkoudelka]

I m not the thinker cause thoughts seems to arise spontaneously.

Yes. Thoughts just happen. It isn't even appropriate to say they come and go from my perspective because there is no where for a thought to come to... nor to go.

Thoughts have no location.

Check it. Look at your left hand. Think about the shape of your left hand. What difference in location is there betwee the perception of the hand and thoughts about the hand?

[cristabella2]

Hello Joseph I tried and retried the exercise. I can t really identify a clear difference in the location. Both sensation and the thought seem to come from the same place. The problem is ... I cannot tell the origin of none of the two.

[Josephkoudelka]

I can t really identify a clear difference in the location. Both sensation and the thought seem to come from the same place. The problem is ... I cannot tell the origin of none of the two.

Yes. There is no distance, or difference, in the location of any perception.

Seeing my hand and thinking, "I see my hand", occur closer than close, right here, right now.

Notice the background environment when you look at your hand. Is there any distance, or change in location, in the perception of the hand and the perception of the environment? Is there any separation between background environment and the hand during the direct experience of perceiving?

[cristabella2]

it is since I was a child that I have sometime the funny feeling that reality is made of the same matter, objects, living being and space, a lively untangible substance. that feeling is still here with me if I look around right here and right now. No, there is no substantial difference from my hand and everything around. Why I see it as a hand, why I see the borders of it as it was a separated object, well ... This remains a mistery to me. Let me ask you something about your personal experience: how did the process of disidentifycation from thoughts happened in your own experience? This is for me the biggest of the challenges. Over and over again I get trapped by the flow of thoughts and those thoughts take over reality. Thank you

[Josephkoudelka]

Let me ask you something about your personal experience: how did the process of disidentifycation from thoughts happened in your own experience? This is for me the biggest of the challenges. Over and over again I get trapped by the flow of thoughts and those thoughts take over reality. Thank you

I sat zazen for a long, long time. Practicing shikantaza. Noticing thoughts but not interacting with thoughts. It became clearly apparent that I did not create the thoughts. If I do not create thought, if i have no control over what I think, how could I be anything that a thought might claim.

I have had a game that I play with myself ever since clearly seeing that I do not create or control my thoughts. I just ask myself, "what will be my next thought?" and wait, looking attentively, curiously. It is always the same result. I have no clue as to the next thought.

This game of looking has been very powerful. That is why looking at our direct experience, and recognizing the truth of this experience, as it is, works for for seeing through the illusion of self.

Who is it that identifies with thought when it is clearly seen that a self is only another thought?

[cristabella2]

I cannot answer, maybe because for long time I believed that the noise in mind was ME. If I stop and I try to play the game of "what will be my next thought?" (very powerful indeed) I can see clearly that I have no control over my thoughts. But then I ask myself, who is aware of the thought, and at that point I am back to that feeling that I mentioned in one of my earliest posts, namely the feeling of being the character on a painting who tries to look at the all canvas. What is the canvas, what si the screen where everything about "my" experience happens?

[Josephkoudelka]

Can you find a separate self that is not a thought?

[cristabella2]

No I can t find it but then who is being aware of those thoughts?

[Josephkoudelka]

No I can t find it but then who is being aware of those thoughts?

Is awareness of a thought locatable? Does awareness have a location?

[cristabella2]

No. It s everywhere. It s all there is!!!

[Josephkoudelka]

Do you feel like you have seen through the illusion of a separate self?

[cristabella2]

I know there is no self I have no doubts however I forget it easily and I keep falling over and over again as a prisoner of my own thoughts. When I focus in the present experience I can see how everything arises and then disappear and then something else appear but I need t focus and I need constant reminders to keep me grounded in the present moment. Working hours are the big challenge: as soon as I seat in front of my computer I get completely carried away by problems plans meetings. Probably this means that I haven t crashed the gate. That I m maybe close but that I haven t experienced completely

[Josephkoudelka]

When I focus in the present experience I can see how everything arises and then disappear and then something else appear but I need t focus and I need constant reminders to keep me grounded in the present moment.

Would you identify with thinking and thoughts if you had a choice?

If there is no self, who gets identified with thoughts?

[cristabella2]

No, I wouldn t identify with thoughts if I had a choice, meaning that probably I don t have one, since everyhting that happens including the feeling of being identified or the feeling of being focused on the present moment, since they are just other elements of Life. However, the feeling of being able to control my focus and stay in my present is very strong. And when these moments occurs, they are accompanied by a perception of reality as thousand elements appearing and disappearing without anybody really controlling them. I need to be still though to experience it. I don t think I crashed the gate but I feel that that "contraction" of energy that I call me is releasing. The dark side of it is that resistance to let go sometimes become very painful as something was fighting the last crucial battle to survive. that something is just an illusion, but that illusion seems to fight desperately for its survival. I will travel again for another week but I will check my emails in the evening if there is network.

[Josephkoudelka]

However, the feeling of being able to control my focus and stay in my present is very strong. And when these moments occurs, they are accompanied by a perception of reality as thousand elements appearing and disappearing without anybody really controlling them. I need to be still though to experience it. I don t think I crashed the gate but I feel that that "contraction" of energy that I call me is releasing. The dark side of it is that resistance to let go sometimes become very painful as something was fighting the last crucial battle to survive. that something is just an illusion, but that illusion seems to fight desperately for its survival.

This too is a belief. There is no self to be having any thought at all.

I have no idea what this is. A concrete identifiable separate self however, is not supported by my experience of this moment. Every perception includes the whole of this environment it occurs in. Thoughts come and go, people come and go, days and nights come and go, yet being here now is always present.

We aren't looking for or guaranteeing a state when the illusion of self has been seen through. States also come and go. We make a point in our disclaimer that a particular state is not what we are about here. This is incredibly simple, once it is seen. The only proof I have of a separate self is a thought, and thoughts come and go. When I look directly at what is here right now, there isn't any one thing I can point to and say, "this right here, this is the self."

I can't help you achieve a state.

Is this clear yet or not?