Need help, please!

[Sprl]

Dear itstopshere,

Thank you for your reply!

experiences, negative and positive, will keep showing up. In that sense, life is like a wave (like a sound wave). You cannot have highs without lows. Life would get bored with itself ;)

Aha, I see! It´s like music, right? There can´t be any music if there is only one note of sound scale, for example "Mi (E)", it will be monotone and very boring!!

Is all of that happening to a person who could influence this process in ANY way?

Oh......!!!! This question "crashed" the false notion of any volition!! Oh.... oh.... Very warm tears are running and running now, can´t be stopped! That´s SO right, everything, including "myself", "others" and the whole world are interconnected like a web and the whole world is like a beautiful music, where each part ("myself", "others", animals, plants, other things) is a note (sound wave as you expressed)! How beautiful, so beautiful...!!!

Now I see what they (I think it was Buddhism, not sure) mean that if a tiny part is changed, it affects the whole world, no matter how small the change is. It is really true, all are sound notes/waves that are interconnected and weaved into one, composing a large-scale beautiful music!

Oh itstopshere, thank you, thank you so much for helping me realize this!!! Your comments and pointers always hit me right to the bottom, so amazing!

Is life in any way different from a mountain stream?

No, I see now that it is exactly the same! Life just flows left to right, goes to wherever it goes, spontaneously and unpredictably!

What looks like "other people" is really just the process of life itself, only apparently manifesting as 'people,' but also as animals, plants, trees, water, air, sun, planets.

Oh.... I got it!!!! they are the very same thing, only life!!!!!!! "I" and "others" are the same thing, how incredible!! I had been deluded by the appearances, but now I see the essence. Life has changed itself into many forms and is just taking different and various appearances, so beautiful...!

Can you find an actual possibility for things to turn out differently than they did at any point after the universe came about?

No, there is no way to have been different! What has led to what it looks like today is the only way and possibility! It has been as it meant to be!

As soon as I throw a tomato at a wall, is there any way for that tomato to not get smashed? Is there even any way for that tomato to have several different possible "splash patterns"?

Initially, a thought popped up and stated "Hmm yeah, there might be other ways, like if suddenly a big bird comes and catches the tomato or something like that", but then I noticed that it was only imaginary. And even thought they might seem to exist different possible "splash patterns" if you rely on your imagination, in actual reality, there is one possibility only. How the tomato will splash in the coming moment is not predictable for anyone, but there is only one way; the way it actually turns out to be.

Oh, it feels both strange and wonderful with this paradox! It feels like things are determined (there is only one possibility), but at the same time, everything is free!

But... now I´m a bit confused! Why does this feel "free"? What is it that is free?

...Yeah, it is freedom from this small "Me-ness" and the false responsibility! It feels so odd and wonderful at the same time; "I" don´t have anything, but everything is open and here available, so kindly and lovingly!

[itstopshere]

So, in your experience, is there anyone observing life in some sense?
Many of us have been explained that consciousness has something to do with being a volitional being. "Choosing consciously" and so on. Now that appears not to be the case. However, clearly "you" KNOW you live. You know you experience. There is no doubt about that, correct? Look into that. What comes up? :)

[Sprl]

Dear itstopshere,

So, in your experience, is there anyone observing life in some sense?

No, there is no one observing! It´s a huge difference between how it is felt now and before when I used feel like "I as Consciousness am observing everything". I can see things (as I see this computer screen in front of me), but it is not done by me or someone, only this seeing process/phenomenon is happening! So strange, but so natural at the same time...!

Many of us have been explained that consciousness has something to do with being a volitional being. "Choosing consciously" and so on. Now that appears not to be the case.

Yes, indeed!

However, clearly "you" KNOW you live. You know you experience. There is no doubt about that, correct? Look into that. What comes up? :)

Hmmm, I am sorry but I don´t get your question.

But if I just describe what I feel/experience, to say "know" feels too much (unnecessary). It feels like just experiencing, nothing more or less. Nothing to know about it, just experiencing, since experiencing itself contains knowing, so concise, clear and self-obvious. Self-contained :)

Please tell me if I have missed your point! :)

[Sprl]

Hello again,

It came up a question, so I post again :)

I just came to think about that many "teachers" say like "You are Consciousness" and I used to follow that kind of teaching and tried to "be" or "stay" as Consiousness, observing thoughts, feelings, sensations, others and the world.

But as I see it now, it feels like stating "You are Consciousness" sounds misleading. There is no "you" that is Consciousness, but only life in the form of experiencing is... If you say "You are Consciousness", there is a risk that "Aha, I am not what I had thought myself to be, not human, but I am Consciousness! From today, I will live as Consciousness observing everything!", which was the case for me (even though I had had a glimps of "no-self", I soon began identifying myself with the new identity called Consciousness").

I wonder why people say "You are Consciousness". I don´t feel "myself" like Consciousness, only life is.

Or is it so that the fact that you know or are aware of your being or experiencing (maybe this is what you meant in your previous post??), it is like life knows itself (= Consciousness)?

Maybe that kind of Consciosuness-teaching worked as a kind of ladder for me, which was helpful for a while, but is now kicked away...?

I just wanted to ask you about this, since the statement "You are Conciousness" sounds so weird and misleading for me now. There is no "me" or "you" that is something (even Consciousness), only life is...

[Sprl]

Sorry for positng again...!

I got it now, so Life is consciouss of itself, so Life itself is Consciousness, right? :)

[itstopshere]

Dear Persika,

You are quite right. The 'knowing' I was speaking of, is the knowing of experience. Not in the sense of intellectual knowledge, but just like you know that you are breathing, you also know that you are experiencing. Clearly there is no experiencing with the knowing or consciousness of it, and no consciousness or knowing without the experience. They are one and the same.

So, check: are there "things" you are conscious of, and then a consciousness knowing those things?

You are doing great. By the way, don't feel sorry for posting several times. That is fine. As long as you don't go into thinking too much and just report on your experience and investigation, it is all fine. :)

[itstopshere]

Sorry for the confusion. My sentence up here should have been "clearly, there is no experiencing without the knowing or consciousness of it."

[Sprl]

Dear itstopshere,

Thank you for your reply and even clarification, now I got it!

So, check: are there "things" you are conscious of, and then a consciousness knowing those things?

No, it feels that the "things" I am conscious of is the very same thing as consciousness/knowing. Hm, it's difficult to describe correctly as I would wish, but it feels like in the process of seeing "things", consciousness/knowing is included with the "things" themselves. So, "things" appearing = consciousness/knowing. "Things" can´t appear without consciousness/knowing of it, because they are the same thing (they are like different aspects/names about the same coin). Like if there is an apple in front of me, it means that I am conscious of it and that this very consciousness has produced (maybe not accurate expression) what it looks like an apple in front of me. So they are inseparable.


I see now that there is no "thing/object" without consciousness/knowing. Then.... a question popped up: What happens when this body dies and disappear?

As a reflex, I firstly thought "Well, then consciousness will disappear too, since body and the consciousness are one and the same)". But consciousness/knowing is not "tied" or a "set" only with this body. It applies to everything. Then, even this body dies, consciousness/knowing will still be remaining...?

Aa, I see now that all these are only speculations, only thoughts, so it won´t lead to the truth.

All I can know at this moment is that this body is alive and functioning. In order to know what happens when the body dies, you have to be at the very moment. All the speculations and analysis that can be done now are only imaginary, not factual, no matter how advanced they might look like. Then, does this mean that there is no way to be able to know what will happen when the body dies...?

Sailor Bob Adamson´s "What´s wrong with right now until you think about it?" has popped up now. Yes, this is true. But... so you don´t know and can´t know what happens when the body dies and disappear...?

What do you say? Do you have any advice on how to tackle this. I feel a kind of "stuck" here...


By the way, I got suddenly now what the phrase "You are Consciousness" meant! The "you" in this phrase doesn´t refer to the fictitious "you", but to the life essence itself :)

You are doing great. By the way, don't feel sorry for posting several times. That is fine. As long as you don't go into thinking too much and just report on your experience and investigation, it is all fine. :)

Thank you very much, it´s very encouraging! You are right with the thinking, it´s easy to get too much into thinking, I will be careful! :)

[itstopshere]

Good :)

Well. Look at consciousness, and look at what you call the body. What is the body? What is it REALLY, in direct experience, without any speculation. Let's say your memory got wiped out, but you retained your language. You wake up, what is the body? Is it skin, is it hair, is it nails, is it all kinds of organs? Is that true? Or is it something different? (And I am not pointing "just" to consciousness here. Try to describe in simple terms what the body is :) )

[Sprl]

Dear itstopshere,

OK, based on just simple observation in direct experience if I have no memory, body is something that is appearing in front of me.

-About skin-
There is beige color in different shapes (I am describing about "hands" here). They move and as they move, some kind of sensation is felt. I can´t locate where this sensation is, but some kind of sensation is just "floating" in the air.

-About hair-
There are black things that looks like strings.

-About nails-
There are light pink color things in oval form.

-About organs-
I can´t find any organs directly. Feel different types of sensations here and there, but there is no proof that they have something to do with inner organs in direct experience.


So, in sum, what is called body is made of different colors, shapes and sensations appearing in front of me.They are always here, hanging around, except when I close my eyes or am asleep.

[Sprl]

Hello again,

After rereading what I wrote yesterday, I noticed that the expression "appearing in front of me" may give an impression as if there are some things (colors, shapes and sensations) appearing there and there is "me" or any other existence looking at them from here, but it is not what I meant. Only colors, shapes and sensations are appearing and floating here (or more accurately, impossible to locate where with any words). You maybe knew this, but just for clarification :)

I continued look into this "body"-thing. Then, I realized that there actually was no thing concrete and real that could be a "body", but that there were only those different kinds of colors, shapes and sensations appearing. So, the word "body" refers to the series of all those visual and tactical sensations and give you an impression as if there is something concrete and real called "body".

OK, so "body" is exactly the same with other "things", like apple, table, car etc that are made only of your visual and tactical sensations combined!

By realizing this, this "body" feels more and more loose, as if just various "parts" (different colors, shapes and sensations) are floating in the air totally independently each other. Then, what matters even these "die" and disappear? Nothing, only these colors, shapes and sensations will vanish, and no big deal with that. "Things" appear and disappear, nothing strange or fearful with that.

I have got this.

However, I feel that it seems as if I have attached quite big meaning with the notion of "death" and have a strong feeling of wanting to know for sure what actually happens when the "body" disappear. Oh, so strange, I know on the one hand that what actually will happen when the "body" disappear is that those colors, shapes and sensations will vanish, only that, but on the other hand, why is there this kind of uncomfortableness or slight fear with this matter...?

OK, I look into this fear connected with the notion of "death". Hmm, there is this fearful sensation arising......... Aha.....!!!! Wait, there is only this fearful sensation arising, but only that, and this has nothing to do with the actual "death"...???? Aaaaa, no no, there is no thing that dies either, so there is no death actually....?????!!!!

Oh, so the notion of "death" was also an illusion.....!!!!

Oh no, people (including me, of course) have believed seriously that there is death, but this is only illusion..., oh no...!!!! So we have been just deluded and believed that there is something called death...

Aaaa.... I can´t believe this....!!!!! Oh no, oh no, oh no........... So these are only "stories", I can´t believe this....

As a matter of fact, I lost my mother when I was 10 years old and since then, people´s death had been a kind of very big and scary thing, has been a trauma for me. And in order to tackle this deep sorrow and traumatic confusion, I was drawn to the teachings and notion of reincarnation, souls and ghosts (spirits). This idea solaced my pain and grief for many years by believing that even dead family members and friends were still living somewhere in different forms in another realm. But since a couple years ago when I came across Advaita and Zen, I came to suspect the story of reincarnation and souls´ existence. And when my father died last year, I didn´t know what to believe anymore. On one hand, I wanted to believe the story of reincarnation and that my father was alive in a different realm, but on the other hand, I knew somewhere that that kind of story was only a story temporary expedient for those who were in deep grief. But I felt that I had to know the truth. And when I heard Advaita teachers saying "there is no reincarnation, there is no soul" repeatedly, I felt very empty and alone. Where have my mother and father gone if there is no reincarnation or soul...? So nothing left...? I was very sad.

But now.... Oh, never, never did I know or even imagine that there actually was no death itself.... The notion of death itself was a total illusion....!!!!!! I had been only dreaming..... oh, just dreaming....

I can´t believe this... can´t stop crying, both huge relief and shock... Just think, I had been having so much pain and grief over such a long time since childhood without knowing the truth.... All the pain and grief in vain....!!!

I know that it feels like I had gone through all those emotions and experiences "in vain" at this moment, because I am in a very big shock state now. But I feel at the same time such a relief and release by realizing the truth.

itstopshere, thank you, thank you so much....!!! I can´t thank you enough....

[itstopshere]

Very good, Persika :) And you are welcome... as you know :)

So let's have a kind of overview or recap.
What or who is Persika?
What does "I" refer to?
Is there anyone in control in any way?
What is "the body"?
Is there any distinction in reality? Is there a "you" and a "world"?

[Sprl]

Dear itstopshere,

Thank you for your reply!

What or who is Persika?

Persika is a name for a series of phenomena including colors, shapes (that looks like a "body"), sounds (what is regarded as "voice"), thoughts, feelings and sensations combined. It appears as if there is someone called Persika who is acting, but actually, there are these arisings happening only and there is no real substance or existence that is Persika. So, Persika is a kind of phantom produced by all those arisings combined.

What does "I" refer to?

The same as above. In my case, the "I" was connected most strongly with the sensation felt in the upper chest area and I had taken it for granted for my entire life that that sensation was the "real me". But that sensation is a kind of sensation only and has nothing to do with someone or any real existence.

Is there anyone in control in any way?

No no, there is no one in control in any way! Firstly, there is no one existing anywhere at all, and secondly, what it seems like choosing or volition is a misconception. What is actually happening is: a thought arises that states "I want to do this", for example, and then, a certain action that matches with the content of the prior thought happens, and lastly, a new thought arises stating "You see? I made the decision by myself!". But in reality, there are no connection between these thoughts and the action actually taken. All these are only happening totally independently from each other and spontaneously,without anyone controlling them.

What is "the body"?

There is nothing concrete and independent that is a "body". A body is a name for a series of colors, shapes and sensations appearing, and you just call it as a "body" as if there is one real thing. So, in reality, all the "body" parts are made only of colors, shapes and sensations only and those various arisings combined together appears as a "body".

Is there any distinction in reality? Is there a "you" and a "world"?

No, distinction is only in thought. When you feel as if there are distinctions between an apple and an orange in front of you, it is not based on your real direct experience. In reality, only colors and shapes that looks like an apple and an orange, only that, nothing more or less and they can´t be divided in reality, but a thought comes in and states "this part is apple and this part is orange". This seeming distinction is only imaginary, only a thought stating nonsense in a sense.

And there is no "me" and the "world". Firstly, there is no "I" as stated above, and what it appears as "me" or "my body" is made of colors, shapes and sensations, no real substance. Likewise, what it appears as "other people", are made also of colors, shapes and sensations. For example, there is no father or mother. It appears as if "my mother" existed, but actually, only certain colors, shapes, sounds and sensations appeared and I regarded and called the "gathering" of those arisings as my mother (looked like an distinct and independent person) for a certain number of years, but there was no real substance or mother or any existence actually.

The same applies other "things" in the world and even the world itself. All these are made of colors, shapes, sounds and sensations. There is no thing that is distinct, solid and independent.

The distinctions between "me", "others", "animals", "buildings", "world" etc are not real, it´s only a thought stating there there are these kinds of distinctions, but these distinctions are only imaginary.


itstopshere, I have a question. You wrote before (when we talked about the tomato´s "splash patterns") as:

This is important! We'll get to why later :)

I am curious what you intended to say :)

[itstopshere]

Dear Persika,

You sound really clear to me :)

What I meant with the "This is important! We'll get to why later :) " is exactly this, which you saw yourself very quickly already:

Oh......!!!! This question "crashed" the false notion of any volition!! Oh.... oh.... Very warm tears are running and running now, can´t be stopped! That´s SO right, everything, including "myself", "others" and the whole world are interconnected like a web and the whole world is like a beautiful music, where each part ("myself", "others", animals, plants, other things) is a note (sound wave as you expressed)! How beautiful, so beautiful...!!!

I think we are done here. Do you have any last questions?
If not, I will show our conversation to other guides to confirm with them that indeed you are clear, and get back to you soon if they have any feedback and last questions. :)

[Sprl]

Dear itstopshere,

Oh, thank you very much for your warm comments! :)


As a matter of fact, there is one thing I would like to get cleared and it´s about deep sleep.

In deep sleep, there is no sensation or knowing at all at the moment. That you have haft a good deep sleep can you be aware of first in the morning when you "wake up". I wonder what a deep sleep is...

Is it a kind of state? In some nonduality books, I have read before that a deep sleep is a state of pure awareness without any arisings and that it´s the most natural state as pure awareness/consciousness.

But in my direct experience as I have observed since yesterday, it feels more accurate to state (I´m not saying that I am right, I may very well be "wrong") that a deep sleep is a kind of illusion, since I can know and be aware of it only after the deep sleep is over, i.e. when I wake up. So actually, the experience of the deep sleep appears only as a memory, a kind of thought, which does not prove that I really had experienced a deep sleep.

However, it feels very strange...

Can you point for me what I should look into?


By the way, please understand that I have used the word "I" many times here, but you know that I am not meaning that there is some separate "I" experiencing "things"; it is done only for convenience sake :)