Triratna OM Guide please

[Dee]

Will do
Thanks
D

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati
I have been noticing thoughts as they arise and pass away
Sounds as they arise and pass away
The same with taste and smell - some smells also appearing as taste - dog's chocolate biscuit! Arising, changing, passing away
Visual sensations - light colour dark. I've been noticing the labels - focus, distance
I've been trying to stay with just the sensations.
Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

I have been noticing thoughts as they arise and pass away
Sounds as they arise and pass away
The same with taste and smell - some smells also appearing as taste - dog's chocolate biscuit! Arising, changing, passing away
Visual sensations - light colour dark. I've been noticing the labels - focus, distance
I've been trying to stay with just the sensations.

That’s good work Dee.

Now, using well “known” (labelled) objects, like a mug, your favourite piece of music, smell of toast, etc, please observe in direct experience:
- Can a ‘mugness’, an inherent, unique essence of ‘mug’, be found when looking at the mug? (Visual field)
And similarly for all other senses:
- Can a ‘musicness’, an inherent, unique essence of ‘music’, be found when listening to the tune? (Hearing field)
And so on.

And with the thoughts:
- Can an ‘owner’, an inherent, unique entity called ‘me’ (‘myself’, ‘my’ ‘self’), be found when observing a thought? (Mind activity)

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dee,

I have been noticing thoughts as they arise and pass away
Sounds as they arise and pass away
The same with taste and smell - some smells also appearing as taste - dog's chocolate biscuit! Arising, changing, passing away
Visual sensations - light colour dark. I've been noticing the labels - focus, distance
I've been trying to stay with just the sensations.

That’s good work Dee.

Now, using well “known” (labelled) objects, like a mug, your favourite piece of music, smell of toast, etc, please observe in direct experience:
-

Can a ‘mugness’, an inherent, unique essence of ‘mug’, be found when looking at the mug? (Visual field)
And similarly for all other senses:
- Can a ‘musicness’, an inherent, unique essence of ‘music’, be found when listening to the tune? (Hearing field)
And so on.

And with the thoughts:
- Can an ‘owner’, an inherent, unique entity called ‘me’ (‘myself’, ‘my’ ‘self’), be found when observing a thought? (Mind activity)

Visual field - no mugness - colour light darkness
Hearing - no musicness - sound sensations
Smell - smell sensations
Thoughts - the thoughts arise and pass away somewhere - I can't call that me, I, etc

Best wishes d


All the best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Visual field - no mugness - colour light darkness
Hearing - no musicness - sound sensations
Smell - smell sensations
Thoughts - the thoughts arise and pass away somewhere - I can't call that me, I, etc

Thank you Dee, this is also the experience here. Well observed.

A little recap:
- Observation reveals that nothing experienced via the physical senses is imbued with a inherent essence, a unique quality that supports an objective existence. A “mug” only exists as a “mug” because it is labelled so, in terms of experience, a “mug” is nothing other than a bunch of sensations.
- Observation also reveals that no thought that is experienced can be attributed the honour of being this “I”, “me”, “self”. Thoughts seem just as anonymous as any other experienced sensation.

So, Dee, where is Dee?
Where is this separate entity that is called 'Dee' for convenience?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati

So, Dee, where is Dee?
Where is this separate entity that is called 'Dee' for convenience?

Feeling Dee - sensations
Vision of dee/mug - sensations
Hearing, smell, even taste of dee - sensations
Thoughts about Dee - sensations
... But where does awareness come from - or direction of focus ie who decides to think about Dee? Who directs awareness to the sensations, who learns, who retains information and memories? Are these just concepts?
Who makes decisions? Are decisions merely concepts - but who directs them?

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Feeling Dee - sensations
Vision of dee/mug - sensations
Hearing, smell, even taste of dee - sensations
Thoughts about Dee - sensations

Feeling "Dee", vision of "Dee", etc.
But is this "Dee" that is referred to here any more real than the 'mug' or the 'music'?
To answer this, one way is to locate "Dee", to find exactly where this "Dee" is manifest: scanning and observing all 6 senses, when can "Dee" be located?

... But where does awareness come from - or direction of focus ie who decides to think about Dee? Who directs awareness to the sensations, who learns, who retains information and memories? Are these just concepts?
Who makes decisions? Are decisions merely concepts - but who directs them?

These are great questions Dee.
Most of these questions are to do with agency, doership: ie. the entity responsible for an action. For the moment, one question in return: why must there be an entity in control?
This is the next step in the inquiry, so thanks for introducing it.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dee,

Feeling Dee - sensations
Vision of dee/mug - sensations
Hearing, smell, even taste of dee - sensations
Thoughts about Dee - sensations

Feeling "Dee", vision of "Dee", etc.
But is this "Dee" that is referred to here any more real than the 'mug' or the 'music'?
To answer this, one way is to locate "Dee"

, to find exactly where this "Dee" is manifest: scanning and observing all 6 senses, when can "Dee" be located?y

. There's a flow of sensations. There's no definite place to locate dee.

... But where does awareness come from - or direction of focus ie who decides to think about Dee? Who directs awareness to the sensations, who learns, who retains information and memories? Are these just concepts?
Who makes decisions? Are decisions merely concepts - but who directs them?

These are great questions Dee.
Most of these questions are to do with agency, doership: ie. the entity responsible for an action. For the moment, one question in return: why must there be an entity in control?
This is the next step in the inquiry, so thanks for introducing it.

All the best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

There's a flow of sensations. There's no definite place to locate dee.

Similar conclusion when there's an attempt at locating "me", Dridhamati. Thanks Dee.

So Dee, is there a "self", a "you"?
Has there ever been?

And you did not answer this question: why must there be an entity in control?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi again Dridhamati

So Dee, is there a "self", a "you"?
Has there ever been?

Seems that there is no self - there is only the concept of self. Or is it no fixed self?

I suppose I had learned to believe there is the concept of me, self. It's just a flow of sensations.

Why must there be an entity in control? ... How do we manage to follow rules, learn complicated processes ... I see that thoughts arise and pass away on their own. I've no idea where the controller is or if it exists but I still don't understand how I manage to work, go home, etc.

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

I suppose I had learned to believe there is the concept of me, self. It's just a flow of sensations.

That's a good way of putting it, yes.
And the word 'believe' hits the nail right on the head: this “self” is nothing other than a concept in which a belief is placed. And a strong belief it is too.

Seems that there is no self - there is only the concept of self.

'Seems' Dee?
Other than as a concept, is there any expectation to find a “self” hiding somewhere and reappearing at times?
This can be tested easily at any time: observing with all 6 senses in action, can a “self” be located anywhere, at all, ever?

Or is it no fixed self?

As stated above, a concept is a flow of [mental] sensations, can it ever be 'fixed'? Is the term 'fixed' even relevant here?

The concept will likely arise again, the ideas, thoughts -the mental sensations- that make up this notion of a “self” won't disappear overnight. How could they? After all this concept of a “self” has been well learned and has proved useful to the organism referred to as Dee to function everyday.

However, the question is Dee: is this concept of a “self” still believed in, is the delusion still active?
Put another way, is this concept still believed to point to anything 'separate' and 'tangible' that can be observed at will?

Why must there be an entity in control? ... How do we manage to follow rules, learn complicated processes ... I see that thoughts arise and pass away on their own. I've no idea where the controller is or if it exists but I still don't understand how I manage to work, go home, etc.

I cannot provide any answers here Dee, other than “sensations arise and pass away”...
It is a mystery here too. Yet events occur.
And if there is any doubt about a 'controller' or an 'agent' in charge of anything this organism does, there are simple exercises that clearly show the utter absence of this 'doer':
1. Standing up, arms along the body. The thought arises 'raise the right arm'. Does the right arm reliably rise each time the order comes?
2. Another one: can the next thought be reliably predicted?
And so on.

There are further exercises, connected with questions we can go into now. But first please answer the questions in bold in this post.
And if there's any doubt, or difficulty about anything in this post, please let me know.

Great work Dee.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati


Other than as a concept, is there any expectation to find a “self” hiding somewhere and reappearing at times?
This can be tested easily at any time: observing with all 6 senses in action, can a “self” be located anywhere, at all, ever?

when I forget (when busy working) about this process (LU) I know I still feel there is a me. Strong opinions appear, protection, putting up barriers between myself and "out there". When I bring my attention back to this process and experience my experience then I can't locate the self.

"I" "think" the delusion still exists! Thinking appears to be the problem! The concept is a concept, idea or just thoughts. Not tangible.

I feel as if I'm perhaps doubting (thoughts) the mere concept (thoughts) of a self. Perhaps I'm just repeating what you've said? I am able to experience no self through the senses - but Im not very confident about sight!

I tried the exercises and it is clear. Thanks.

Wednesday is very full for me work then evening group but I will try to look for your response if I can.

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

when I forget (when busy working) about this process (LU) I know I still feel there is a me. Strong opinions appear, protection, putting up barriers between myself and "out there". When I bring my attention back to this process and experience my experience then I can't locate the self.

This phenomenon is natural. Some people compare it to the 'gravity pull', others to 'inertia, or momentum', others still to 'force of habit'.
The force of habit is a good one: just ask a smoker who wants to quit.

"I" "think" the delusion still exists! Thinking appears to be the problem! The concept is a concept, idea or just thoughts. Not tangible.

And this is where it all lies Dee, as accurately pointed out: “the concept is a concept”.
The give-away in this quote is: 'think'. The suggestion in this dialogue is to stop believing thought content and their stories at face value, and to verify these thoughts against observations of experience.
For example, thoughts, ideas, etc can form a pretty picture of Santa Claus, sleigh and reindeer. Yet, is Santa believed in? And, even when(if) Dee ever believed in Santa, did(would) that make the guy 'real' in an objective way?

So the question is asked again: is the belief in a 'separate self', or in a 'self-view' still present?

I feel as if I'm perhaps doubting (thoughts) the mere concept (thoughts) of a self. Perhaps I'm just repeating what you've said?

Could you please expand on this. I do not understand what this is leading to.

I am able to experience no self through the senses - but Im not very confident about sight!

Could you explain more precisely what is happening with sight?
As before, using the mug exercise for example, observe with the eyes.
A thought comes up: there is perspective. Simply challenge this thought: is this 'perspective' actually observed? Or is it a concept inferred from 'mug distance' (another concept) and 'background distance' (yet another concept)?
Push the observation to the limits, do not accept any thought without challenge. See where it leads.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati

Dee wrote:
I feel as if I'm perhaps doubting (thoughts) the mere concept (thoughts) of a self. Perhaps I'm just repeating what you've said?
Could you please expand on this. I do not understand what this is leading to.
I was undermining myself! Thoughts!

Dee wrote:
I am able to experience no self through the senses - but Im not very confident about sight!
Could you explain more precisely what is happening with sight?
As before, using the mug exercise for example, observe with the eyes.
A thought comes up: there is perspective. Simply challenge this thought: is this 'perspective' actually observed? Or is it a concept inferred from 'mug distance' (another concept) and 'background distance' (yet another concept)?
Push the observation to the limits, do not accept any thought without challenge. See where it leads.

Oh yes. Distance, focus, perspective - concepts! Not experience.

I like the Santa Claus example. Thanks

All the best d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

I was undermining myself! Thoughts!

Aha, that's alright then, particularly since there's no "self" to undermine. As you say: thoughts!

Oh yes. Distance, focus, perspective - concepts! Not experience.

That's it.
Now, pushing the observation further, challenging all labels that come up, where does it lead?

I like the Santa Claus example. Thanks

Santa is a favourite one on LU. It illustrates in a simple and clear manner how the belief system works. And how beliefs can disappear without jeopardising an existence.
Santa is a metaphor for the "self". What happens when "self" is substituted for Santa in the story?

And while on the subject of belief, that's twice now the following question has not been answered. So here it is again:
Is the belief in a 'separate self', or in a 'self-view' still present?

All the best
Dridhamati