request for a guide

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

Thank you for these comments about fear. I am not that surprise that it arises during the investigation. Fear is actually not that intense like feelings of apathy that I am experiencing most of the time. It is not that easy for me to be in touch with sensations connected to this feeling. It feels unmoving in the body. It is very interesting to look at this as it is a state that I don’t experience that often. I know that all states are temporary but this particular one – lack of interest in doing things/activities has been with me for a while. I even tested myself by bringing from the memory my great dreams and they felt sweet but there was no big excitement about them. It feels weird but I also don’t feel concern about it.

I can see what I wrote didn't exactly match what you were meaning and asking in this thread but however lets carry on :) About apathy, this can show up as a lack of drive or meaning when the shift from seeing yourself as a separate self to seeing that there's no one running the show. You're correct - all states are temporary and this one is quite common with those doing this sort of investigation. If you're feeling acceptance about this, great!
Can you allow this to show up and pass as does all other states/thoughts?emotions etc.
I'm not talking about this as an end point where you don't continue to participate in this play called life :) Rather be curious and light.

This exercise was referring to the experience of the “face”, right? Please correct me if I am wrong. If I take away my memory about the face my experience is that I don’t know how it looks like as I can’t see it. I only experience sensations and there is a sense that through this sensation seeing is happening. When I called this experience – “the point/space that observes” that was what I meant and I possibly didn’t worded it well. I didn’t feel localised in the body in those experiences because without memory the body felt quite formless.

Great looking :) Yes there is no location for the body without the memory/thought of location. Would it be fair to say that the body feels less solid than thoughts say?

Does “the sight ” means face in this context ? I was referring to “the sight” as seeing. It is a tricky one. I closed the eyes and I connected with sensation so called” face” and then I open the eyes and I could feel the sensation and see in the same time. Does seeing come form the sensation or the other way around? I don’t know. It is not clear yet.

Yes I was referring to sight as seeing :) This is a tricky one I agree. You can keep looking at this but I would like to come back to it after focusing on 'separation'

Yes, that seem to be close to what I am experiencing. They are appearing equally without any hierarchy , what links them is that they are: experiences or appearances.

Excellent :) You're seeing clearly. I think you're definitely ready for the final 6 questions :) We can continue investigation after this.

When I look very closely I can see that everything is shapeless and non-localized, there is no confirmation that anything is solid or has a specific contour or it has its obvious beginning. It feels more like a movement, fusion or mixture so under this investigation I see there is no separation.

That is so beautiful Divya! I feel privileged to be walking along with you looking at this 'together' <3

Much love

Tanya

[Divya]

Hi Tanya!,

About apathy, this can show up as a lack of drive or meaning when the shift from seeing yourself as a separate self to seeing that there's no one running the show. You're correct - all states are temporary and this one is quite common with those doing this sort of investigation. If you're feeling acceptance about this, great!
Can you allow this to show up and pass as does all other states/thoughts?emotions etc.
I'm not talking about this as an end point where you don't continue to participate in this play called life :) Rather be curious and light.

Thank you for reassuring me that this is quite normal. I usually would be a bit concern as I am a “person” who doesn’t allow myself to be bored or uninterested , ha, ha, but I know that I am going through this process and there are so many sates/feelings that want the attention at this moment. Yes, I feel acceptance, at least at this moment… it feels like it is pointless to protect “something” what seems to not exist…. so I welcome this apathy for as long as it has to be. Participation in life is still happening.

Would it be fair to say that the body feels less solid than thoughts say?

yes, definitely less solid , even when I am touching it I ask “how do I know it is solid? I feel sensation but nothing apart from a thought suggest that it is solid. I am enjoying this play of seeing that I experience the body differently than it is appearing to look like, ha, ha…

Excellent :) You're seeing clearly. I think you're definitely ready for the final 6 questions :) We can continue investigation after this.

Great! I am very curious about these 6 questions! And I am happy that we can continue investigation after this! And I can see that beside the apathy – excitement is present too!

That is so beautiful Divya! I feel privileged to be walking along with you looking at this 'together'

Ah, thank you so much. I didn’t expect it could be that straightforward. The questions help so much to get on a right track. It feels like I can’t see it, I can’t see it …. And then boom …I can see it ! This seeing is a bit shocking at first as the experience of the reality feels so different to this what we know about it . It feels like I am in a process of adjusting to this truth of no separation and along with it there are “old reactions” happening. I am glad to see that they didn’t go away but there is more space to see them for what they are and there is less of a tendency to escape from them.

Thank you Tanya for dedicating your time and supporting me through it. I have so much respect for LU and how well it is arranged and generous in its offering. I feel a lot of gratitude.

Much , much love xxxx I feel very happy right now.

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya!,

Thank you for reassuring me that this is quite normal. I usually would be a bit concern as I am a “person” who doesn’t allow myself to be bored or uninterested , ha, ha, but I know that I am going through this process and there are so many sates/feelings that want the attention at this moment. Yes, I feel acceptance, at least at this moment… it feels like it is pointless to protect “something” what seems to not exist…. so I welcome this apathy for as long as it has to be. Participation in life is still happening.

And if there was non-acceptance that would be ok too as it's already allowed because it has shown up in this play :)It's great to notice different states and emotions and not get too attached or pushing them away. Yes, why would you protect 'something' that isn't there....great seeing and good to notice this.

yes, definitely less solid , even when I am touching it I ask “how do I know it is solid? I feel sensation but nothing apart from a thought suggest that it is solid. I am enjoying this play of seeing that I experience the body differently than it is appearing to look like, ha, ha…

Great that you see that there's just sensation when touching the body. I too very much enjoy investigating the body as it is the 'main focus' of looking for me at the moment. Investigation with this will be continued after the 6 questions. I can set up a thread for us in the Unleashed part of the forum.

Great! I am very curious about these 6 questions! And I am happy that we can continue investigation after this! And I can see that beside the apathy – excitement is present too!

Great! Well here they are:
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Ah, thank you so much. I didn’t expect it could be that straightforward. The questions help so much to get on a right track. It feels like I can’t see it, I can’t see it …. And then boom …I can see it ! This seeing is a bit shocking at first as the experience of the reality feels so different to this what we know about it . It feels like I am in a process of adjusting to this truth of no separation and along with it there are “old reactions” happening. I am glad to see that they didn’t go away but there is more space to see them for what they are and there is less of a tendency to escape from them.

Thank you Tanya for dedicating your time and supporting me through it. I have so much respect for LU and how well it is arranged and generous in its offering. I feel a lot of gratitude.

Much , much love xxxx I feel very happy right now.

There is what I call a period of fluctuation when you have 'I got it, I lost it'. But don't worry you can't lose this, I mean this as it is....well it's everpresent (not sure if that's a word ha ha). Seeing clearly sure is mindblowing isn't it :) Great to see you just noticing the old reactions and staying with them. Doing this not to get rid of them but really feel them as you've seen is much more gentle and loving. Plus all reactions and emotions are included.

It's been a pleasure to guide you although it feels more like having a really 'deep' conversation :) Yes there is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes to keep the website and the forum running smoothly which I respect and appreciate also.

Much love xx,
Tanya

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

thank you for your comments. I will reflect on 6 questions over next few days and will get in touch at the weekend.

love xxxxx

Divya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

Cool, I look forward to your answers to the questions. Good to see you're looking 'deeply' to answer them :)

much love,
Tanya

[Divya]

Hi Tanya, I am missing our regular conversation. I had an emergency this weekend and it is likely I will write about my findings tomorrow. Much love x

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

Thanks for letting me know. I hope all is going well and I look forward to your answers to the final 6 questions tomorrow. Much love xx

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is not and never was. A separate entity (self, me I) appears in a form of a thought. It is real in its appearance but not in what contains. It is recognised for what it is and not for what is not.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is the misleading idea created by thoughts. This idea is totally innocent when recognised for what it is and not for what is not. When recognised for what is not, this idea lives its not real life. It creates a dreamlike reality and it gives a birth to a main character of this reality. This character believes in almost every thought that appears in the awareness. As a result it lives in the continuous imaginary story created by thoughts. The main character believes that it is real and has a real life, identifies with many forms and creates the illusionary story rooted in these identifications. It is so under the illusion of its own unreal life that it doesn’t recognise where it comes from and what it is its true nature.

It believes that is a separate individual. It recognises others in its reality as separate individuals/forms too. It relates to everything as the subject (the main character) and objects (other forms). It divides everything. This separate self most of the time lives in fear and dissatisfaction. It is due to its own limitation and inability to feel whole or complete. It tries to cover this discomfort by chasing many different forms and identifications but none of these seems to satisfy it. A limitation brings a sense of unworthiness, fear and a need to control everything. A lack of completion brings a sense of unrest, searching and hopelessness. It feels lonely and small. It has a sense of living in the body and the mind that “supports” its individual life. It suffers due to its own confusion and disconnection. This suffering will last until it wakes up to its own illusion and see that it never existed in a first place!

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

It still feels quite shocking to see this. The funny thing is that I don’t remember how different it was before we started this dialogue. I possibly was that character that I described in a previous questions.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

When you suggested that exercise with a pencil. I saw it for what it is. I saw only the appearance. It was powerful because it was through a visual sense. For me it was the hardest to see non separateness via a visual sense. The visions suggest so effectively that there are objects that denying their existence is almost insane.

Exploring the true nature of the reality through other senses was a bit easier but absolutely crucial. When touching I couldn’t deny that nothing suggest solidity of anything or separateness. It was only sensation. I would normally say that this side of the object feels this way and the side of my hand touching it feels this way. And then it was clear that nothing like that exist it is only one side – sensation! And I could see it was only a thought that was suggesting something else.

I could see very clearly through the experience the reality before a thought and the reality after the thought that it is believed in. This had enormous impact of seeing the truth of non separateness..

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I am watching this closely on daily basis. I see that life it’s moving unpredictably, on its own accord. The character that appears still wants to claim choices and decisions but it is soon seen for what it is. So choices, decisions and responsibilities are happening. I honestly don’t know how. The character doesn’t have a control over it. It is not due to being powerless, it is due to not being real in a first place. Relaxing in my Being feels like resonating with the frequency that makes the most accurate choices and decisions. The character that appears started to trust as it sees that choices and decisions come before a thought formulates them.

I see that without this trust life is very limited. I see more clearly now when I plan things as a result of my lack of trust. When I notice this I stop and get quiet. I asked “What are you afraid of?” and “What is lacking right now” and I suddenly connect with trust again.

Plans are happening and I am noticing fewer obsessions with planning how to be busy. Sometimes I noticed that I am busy with activities and I see that they are happening whether I plan them or not. I just notice that I truly don’t know anything and I don’t know how all of these are happening.

6) it doesn’t feel like there is anything to add.

I am sending you love

Divya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

Thank you for answering the final 6 questions. I'll let the other guides look at them and see if they have any questions for you.

Much love,
Tanya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

I have a few questions from another guide.

You said "The main character believes that it is real and has a real life".
Is this character real or not? If not, how can something which is not real believe something?
Could you explain in more detail what is really going on here, including what it is that is believing?

In Q5 what it is that 'wants to claim choices and decisions', what it is that 'started to trust as it sees that choices and decisions come before a thought formulates them'?

Much love,
Tanya

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

You said "The main character believes that it is real and has a real life".
Is this character real or not? If not, how can something which is not real believe something?

The main character that is not awake to the truth believes that is real and has a real life. I was referring to the main character as a separate self that you asked me to describe. Experiencing myself as a separate self used to feel very real until I notice and experience that it was only a belief.

[In Q5 what it is that 'wants to claim choices and decisions'/quote]

It is an old tendency that still can appears in my experiences. It doesn't have a great force as it is seen sooner or later for what it is.

what it is that 'started to trust as it sees that choices and decisions come before a thought formulates them'?

ok, I said that the character starts to trust and perhaps this is an incorrect expression. I will try describing this again. Trust is happening and it feels like something is loosening up or relaxing, this movement is experienced through this body and through this character. There is noticing that choices and decisions don’t come from thoughts, although thoughts suggest this.

much love

divya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

The main character that is not awake to the truth believes that is real and has a real life. I was referring to the main character as a separate self that you asked me to describe. Experiencing myself as a separate self used to feel very real until I notice and experience that it was only a belief.

Thanks for clarifying :) So there is no doubt that the illusion of a separate self has been seen through?

It is an old tendency that still can appears in my experiences. It doesn't have a great force as it is seen sooner or later for what it is.

Is this tendency that can still appear in experience actually what's happening or is just a thought? What is the actual experience of choices and decisions?

ok, I said that the character starts to trust and perhaps this is an incorrect expression. I will try describing this again. Trust is happening and it feels like something is loosening up or relaxing, this movement is experienced through this body and through this character. There is noticing that choices and decisions don’t come from thoughts, although thoughts suggest this.

Nice :) So the trust,loosening up or relaxing is just happening to no one? It's not happening to a separate self?
Is character just another word for separate self,so do you still see yourself as separate?
Sorry if these questions are a bit repetitive I just want you to be really clear on this :)

Thank you and much love,
Tanya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

Just checking in :) Hows it going? Look forward to your reply to the above questions.

Much love,
Tanya

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

Sorry for not responding. I felt a bit of frustration of “getting it and losing it”.

So there is no doubt that the illusion of a separate self has been seen through?

I saw this through experimenting with the senses and I realized that only a thought brings a separation. I saw the reality of no separation. I also investigated the”I” and I couldn’t find it . I couldn’t find a proof that this “I” has a form or location. I couldn’t find it in the body ….and I couldn’t even find the body.

Is this tendency that can still appear in experience actually what's happening or is just a thought?

I can see now that this tendency is a thought because it can not be anything else. I just want to say that identification with a thought can happen in my experiences. A few days ago I had challenging experiences and I was caught up in thoughts identification. I could see it later for what it was but not immediately. It feels a bit like falling in a sleep and wakening… falling in a sleep and wakening ...

What is the actual experience of choices and decisions?

Choices and decision are happening. I have no control over it. I can see that sometimes a thought wants to claim it.

So the trust,loosening up or relaxing is just happening to no one? It's not happening to a separate self?

I can see now that these experience are not happening to a separate self . There are not happening to a thought or a belief, they are just happening on their own accord, so of course they are happening to no one or nothing particular.

Is character just another word for separate self,so do you still see yourself as separate?

A thought can still suggest that …until it is seen for what it is.

Much love

Divya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

Sorry for not responding. I felt a bit of frustration of “getting it and losing it”.

There can be a bit of oscillating after seeing through the illusion and it's quite natural :)
'getting it and losing it' is this not only a thought?

I saw this through experimenting with the senses and I realized that only a thought brings a separation. I saw the reality of no separation. I also investigated the”I” and I couldn’t find it . I couldn’t find a proof that this “I” has a form or location. I couldn’t find it in the body ….and I couldn’t even find the body.

Beautiful! Wonderful looking Divya :) Sounds like you're clear on this :)

I can see now that this tendency is a thought because it can not be anything else. I just want to say that identification with a thought can happen in my experiences. A few days ago I had challenging experiences and I was caught up in thoughts identification. I could see it later for what it was but not immediately. It feels a bit like falling in a sleep and wakening… falling in a sleep and wakening ...

Yes and whenever it happens you can question the thought or belief that appears.Don't go with the 'doubting' thoughts, because after all they're just thoughts ;) Thought can't say anything reliable about experience

Choices and decision are happening. I have no control over it. I can see that sometimes a thought wants to claim it.

Yes!

I can see now that these experience are not happening to a separate self . There are not happening to a thought or a belief, they are just happening on their own accord, so of course they are happening to no one or nothing particular.

Wonderful, I'm glad you're clear on this.

Is character just another word for separate self,so do you still see yourself as separate?
A thought can still suggest that …until it is seen for what it is.

Yes, and you have seen it for what it is :) How could you not see a thought for what it is?


Much love

Tanya