request for a guide

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

I am very sorry for posting so late today. Here are my responses just to 2 pointers. I will write more tomorrow.

That's ok :) Post whenever feels convenient. Look forward to seeing your response tomorrow

Thank you for pointing into looking at judgment in actual experiences. The experience feels different after seeing this. There are still so many thoughts arising , stories, judgment and yet something feels different.

:) My pleasure, this pointer has been super helpful here and I'm glad it is for you too (I am you and you are me so it's like pointing to 'myself' ha ha)

Thoughts seem compelling to no one. I see their force right now, no control over it, judgment and it seems to be the way it is. Yes, I’ve seen that the actual experience of life has an absolute easiness, even in the middle of “challenging” experience. No, I have no doubts that I seen through the illusion of the separate self.

I am looking forward to share more reflection on my experiences tomorrow.

:) Exciting! That's great that the illusion has been seen through. Maybe after tomorrow I could give you the final 6 questions unless there's something else you'd like to look at first.


Much love

Tanya <3

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

So it's only an appearance that there is someone at the center, a thought that there's someone one at the center. Do thoughts know anything? Can thoughts do anything?

Yes, there is a thought that there is someone in the center. Thoughts seem to be innocent by themselves. The believer that is made up from thoughts can be temporarily under the illusion of someone in the center. It is a bit like an illusory character creates another illusory character , and this can create another one, it can go on an on. And that is how the movie of the mind starts. I can see this clearly now.

1.Close the eyes and hold up one of the hands. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2.Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3.While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.
Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Experiencing only the sensation of the hand feels different from looking only at the hand. Looking and feeling sensation feels like one experience.

Could it be that experience and perception are one and the same?
If you look at the senses i.e touching,tasting,smelling etc is the experience of hearing the same as perceiving or is there a difference?

I am struggling a little bit with this one today. I can simply say - yes but I want to bring the answer form my experiences. What I am experiencing right now is very clear (I am writing, feeling, looking, thinking, hearing …) and there is something what knows/is aware of this experience. I don’t know what knows this experience, it is not writing itself, or hearing itself, so what is it. Life knows itself through living ? Experience knows itself through experiencing?

you are not the experiencer of experience
you are not the observer of experience
you are not the witness of experience
you *are* experience itself. and there is no difference between experience and that which is aware of experience.
they are one and the same.

Ok, so there I have an answer.

look now - do you find anything present other than experience? isn't a witness, an observer, an experiencer, just an idea?
a fiction...

Yes, there is truly only experience, because what else is there? It feels weird when I investigate and see things as it feels like there is “someone investigating”, otherwise how it can be seen. A bit of paradox…

there is just what is - just you without a separate self

That is the simplest answer – there is what it is! So , asking a question “why is it what it is “ is a bit pointless as it can’t be answer.

Exciting! That's great that the illusion has been seen through.

Yes, the illusion has been seen through close investigation. It seems gradually establishing itself.

Maybe after tomorrow I could give you the final 6 questions unless there's something else you'd like to look at first.

Can we look a bit closer into relationship with people to see no separation too.

I also would like to look at aspect of desires, preferences, dreams – are they still have their function?

Much love

Divya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

Yes, there is a thought that there is someone in the center. Thoughts seem to be innocent by themselves. The believer that is made up from thoughts can be temporarily under the illusion of someone in the center. It is a bit like an illusory character creates another illusory character , and this can create another one, it can go on an on. And that is how the movie of the mind starts. I can see this clearly now.

Where is this believer?
Is there more than one illusory separate self?
Could this be one thought seems to create another thought and is this true?

Experiencing only the sensation of the hand feels different from looking only at the hand. Looking and feeling sensation feels like one experience.

So upon looking closely it was found that there is only one experience. If you put your hand on something i.e the arm of the chair or table, how many sensations is there? (looking only at the hand)

I am struggling a little bit with this one today. I can simply say - yes but I want to bring the answer form my experiences. What I am experiencing right now is very clear (I am writing, feeling, looking, thinking, hearing …) and there is something what knows/is aware of this experience. I don’t know what knows this experience, it is not writing itself, or hearing itself, so what is it. Life knows itself through living ? Experience knows itself through experiencing?

Life knows itself - yes :) Keep looking at this. This can be quite puzzling and it not easily described and is beyond 'figuring it out',quite simply it is beyond thought. Something to contemplate in silence.
It could be helpful to go through these questions again:
Is there a hearer of sounds, or just hearing?
Is there a see-er of sights, or just seeing?
Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?
Is there a taster of tastes, or just tasting?
Is there a feeler of sensation, or just sensation?
Is there a thinker of thoughts or just thinking?
Is there an experiencer of experience (this life)...or just life?

you are not the experiencer of experience
you are not the observer of experience
you are not the witness of experience
you *are* experience itself. and there is no difference between experience and that which is aware of experience.
they are one and the same.


Ok, so there I have an answer.

Don't just take my word for it :) I'm not trying to convince you of anything anything we look at here can be looked at on an experiential level. Look further into this - looking at the body specifically the face:
In the actual experience do you have a face?
Or there is a mental picture derived from memory of the image in the mirror which is mixed together with the current sensations ‘of the face’?

Yes, there is truly only experience, because what else is there? It feels weird when I investigate and see things as it feels like there is “someone investigating”, otherwise how it can be seen. A bit of paradox…

The feeling that there is 'someone investigating' is this any more than a thought or feeling?
Is there any controlling these thoughts?
I mean could you really stop them?
Yes, a paradox - such is many things in this play :)

That is the simplest answer – there is what it is! So , asking a question “why is it what it is “ is a bit pointless as it can’t be answer.

Yes :) Aiming to land in a certain 'position' or conclusion is absolutely pointless. Curiosity and playfulness keep this investigation light and fun.
Are you OK with 'I don't know'? It might not seem like it but there is a lot of intelligence in that and not the intelligence that comes from thought ;)

Yes, the illusion has been seen through close investigation. It seems gradually establishing itself.

:) Has it ever been any other way? I agree it can seem like it's gradually establishing itself (although there is no self ha ha!) but keep looking at this. Has there ever been a separate self? (sorry this question assumes time which we can look at)

Can we look a bit closer into relationship with people to see no separation too.

Yeah, of course!
Let’s explore a little bit what ‘others’ are.
What are others in the actual experience?
Are there others independently from ‘my’ interpretation?
Next time when you talk to someone you can observe this:

There is a sound (voice of the other) and a sight that is labelled as the 'other body'.

But, is there any link between the sound and the sight, meaning that the sound is coming from that sight (the other) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

I also would like to look at aspect of desires, preferences, dreams – are they still have their function?

Cool, we'll just focus on one at a time after we've looked at 'others'

Much love

Tanya <3

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

Where is this believer?
Is there more than one illusory separate self?
Could this be one thought seems to create another thought and is this true?

The believer is only imagined. I don’t know how many illusory self there is. It feels like it there are plenty of them but there is awareness that they are only creation of thoughts.

If you put your hand on something i.e the arm of the chair or table, how many sensations is there? (looking only at the hand)

There is only one sensation.

Look further into this - looking at the body specifically the face:
In the actual experience do you have a face?
Or there is a mental picture derived from memory of the image in the mirror which is mixed together with the current sensations ‘of the face’?

I have experience of my face when looking at the mirror or photos. When I look at someone else face I don’t experience looking/seeing my face. Only memory of my face can suggest its existence.

The feeling that there is 'someone investigating' is this any more than a thought or feeling?
Is there any controlling these thoughts?
I mean could you really stop them?

I looked again and I can see that there is only investigating. “Someone investigating is only a thought” that can’t be controlled in its appearance.

Are you OK with 'I don't know'? It might not seem like it but there is a lot of intelligence in that and not the intelligence that comes from thought ;)

There is much more openness for I don’t know” and yes , I've experienced its intelligence.

Has there ever been a separate self? (sorry this question assumes time which we can look at).

There is still experience of separate self and also seeing that it is illusory. A bit of a paradox

What are others in the actual experience?
Are there others independently from ‘my’ interpretation?
Next time when you talk to someone you can observe this:
There is a sound (voice of the other) and a sight that is labelled as the 'other body'.
But, is there any link between the sound and the sight, meaning that the sound is coming from that sight (the other) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Others are experienced through senses, feelings and thinking. Others are one with my interpretation. At first it feels like the sound is coming from the sight. After investigation I can see that only hearing, seeing , feeling and thinking is happening. It feels again like the same, one experience. This is weird….

Much love

Divya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya!,

The believer is only imagined. I don’t know how many illusory self there is. It feels like it there are plenty of them but there is awareness that they are only creation of thoughts.

It can seem like there are many illusory self with all the 'roles' played in life (mother,daughter,wife etc) but they are arising thoughts and the content of the thought is not the actual experience of what is :) This doesn't mean that these 'roles' can't play out but that the labels put onto ourselves are seen for what they are: thoughts.
So you can see they are only a thought.
Do thoughts create anything?
or thoughts just happens?

There is only one sensation.

:) You can experiment with this with other body parts such as your feet touching the ground. Dropping the labels 'feet' and 'ground' what is the experience?

I have experience of my face when looking at the mirror or photos. When I look at someone else face I don’t experience looking/seeing my face. Only memory of my face can suggest its existence.

Is the experience of seeing the face in the mirror or photos proof that it's your face?
or is it a practiced memory or thought that when you look in the mirror or a photo says 'This is Divya'?
Where is the memory of the face without the mirror or photo?
What is the actual experience of the face?

I looked again and I can see that there is only investigating. “Someone investigating is only a thought” that can’t be controlled in its appearance.

:) Yes. A question arises from no one in this no thing as no thing or doesn't. Is there control over any appearance?

There is much more openness for I don’t know” and yes , I've experienced its intelligence.

:) So really is there any 'need' for knowledge? What has been 'seeked' is where you're seeking from - which you've probably heard a million times ha ha.

There is still experience of separate self and also seeing that it is illusory. A bit of a paradox

Ah another paradox :) The illusion can be seen through and still it seems like we're acting on the behalf of a separate self.Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.
Pay attention to the sensation of the hand.
Without referring to thoughts, is there any knowledge that this sensation is ‘me’?
Does it come with a ‘me’ label attached to it?
Does the sound of the wind come with a ‘not me’ label attached to it?
Are they both not just pure raw experiences?
No hand or wind let alone ‘me’ or ‘not me’?
Does the sound of the wind come with a ‘not me’ label attached to it?
Are they both not just pure raw experiences?
No hand or wind let alone ‘me’ or ‘not me’?

Others are experienced through senses, feelings and thinking. Others are one with my interpretation. At first it feels like the sound is coming from the sight. After investigation I can see that only hearing, seeing , feeling and thinking is happening. It feels again like the same, one experience. This is weird….

When you say thinking do you mean thought?
Keep looking at this :)
When an 'other' is touched how many sensations are there? Is there 2 sensations i.e your hand and 'theirs'?
How much distance is there between the hearing of 'their voice' and you?
Is sight proof of 'other' or is this just a thought/mental image constructing 'other'?


Much love

Tanya <3

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

It can seem like there are many illusory self with all the 'roles' played in life (mother,daughter,wife etc) but they are arising thoughts and the content of the thought is not the actual experience of what is :) This doesn't mean that these 'roles' can't play out but that the labels put onto ourselves are seen for what they are: thoughts.

Yes, this seeing is a bit shocking. I am going through a little process with this seeing today. There is a bit of frustration appearing. I understand now what you meant when you said that clear seeing can bring anger too. It looks like raw experiences of life are very simple: experience via senses. Thoughts, when believed, bring illusory version of these experiences. There is this automatic focus on the illusory reality in my experience.

So you can see they are only a thought.
Do thoughts create anything?
or thoughts just happens?

I can see that thoughts, when believed, create illusion. When not believed, they just appear.

Is the experience of seeing the face in the mirror or photos proof that it's your face?
or is it a practiced memory or thought that when you look in the mirror or a photo says 'This is Divya'?
Where is the memory of the face without the mirror or photo?
What is the actual experience of the face?

When looking at my face at the mirror - seeing is happening with interpretation coming from thoughts/memories that it is my face. So Believing and memorizing is happening too, or simplifying I can say that thinking is happening. This freaks me out a bit. So there is no proof in actual experiences that images exist ? the actual experience is seeing and objects are only believed to exist.

When I look at my face at the mirror my actual experience is seeing and thinking which are not separated.
When I don’t look at my face in the mirror there is no seeing but there is memory (thought) of my face.

A question arises from no one in this no thing as no thing or doesn't. Is there control over any appearance?

It seem to not be control over any appearance, they come and disappear.

So really is there any 'need' for knowledge? What has been 'seeked' is where you're seeking from - which you've probably heard a million times ha ha.

Yes. I can see that this is fully seen when total let go of a thought of separateness happens.

Pay attention to the sensation of the hand.
Without referring to thoughts, is there any knowledge that this sensation is ‘me’?
Does it come with a ‘me’ label attached to it?
Does the sound of the wind come with a ‘not me’ label attached to it?
Are they both not just pure raw experiences?
No hand or wind let alone ‘me’ or ‘not me’?
Does the sound of the wind come with a ‘not me’ label attached to it?
Are they both not just pure raw experiences?
No hand or wind let alone ‘me’ or ‘not me’?

When I pay attention to the sensation of the hand, without referring to knowledge I experience only sensation. The label can follow with this sensation or not.
The sound of the wind can come with the label “not me” or doesn’t have to.
Taking an attached label away from the experience it is only sensation of touch or sensation of hearing.

When you say thinking do you mean thought?

Yes, by thinking I mean – thoughts appearing one after the other.

Keep looking at this :)
When an 'other' is touched how many sensations are there? Is there 2 sensations i.e your hand and 'theirs'?
How much distance is there between the hearing of 'their voice' and you?
Is sight proof of 'other' or is this just a thought/mental image constructing 'other'?

When an “other is touched it is only one sensation, not two. As I experience myself to be not located anywhere, I can’t relate to any distance. Hearing happens without distance.

Can we clarify proof of “other”. I see that pure experience happens before there is a belief about it. So far I can see that raw/intimate experience is expressed via senses. When I look at “other” and I only explore raw experience I can say : seeing is happening. When I attached thoughts into this experience I create the illusion of seeing “other”. Is this right? I need a bit of help here.

Let’s take as an example looking at my friend.

Raw experience: seeing of shapes, colours, movements, hearing sounds, smelling fragrance, feeling sensation through touching.

Raw experience + thoughts: I see my friend Angelica, I hug her, she looks very refreshing after her holiday. I am pleased to see her, she is very funny, she laughs and talks a lot. She tells me about her holiday in Australia. I feel a bit tired of her talking a lot, I am noticing that I am loosing my focus and her voice is fading away. I am thinking what I will get for a dinner tonight. I am a bit irritated that she doesn’t ask a lot about me. I feel that she doesn’t have that great interest in me ... blah, blah...

There are very different experiences. The first one feels very direct, simple, non-judgmental, intimate and neutral. The other experience seems to move focus from sensing to mental chatter. It feel more vibrant but not truthful, they very judgmental, personal, one-sided.

In my first experience my friend disappeared in the other was very visible.

I am curious to ask if in your life this raw experience become central now? When you talk to close friends do you only experience them through 5 senses or do you accept that thoughts happens but you don't believe them or take notice of them.

Is everything what exist in “external reality” is only a by-product of thoughts. How do I know things? Only by experiencing them not thinking them?

much love

divya

[Divya]

hi Tanya ,

Frustration is quite common when looking.
What is underneath that frustration and anger?
Does it need it to be protected?

I am just noticing many paradoxical states from apathy, excitement to frustration and anger. I follow your advice to stay with sensations in the body rather than spending time interpreting these states and making a story of them. This makes much easier to be with actual experiences. There is a lot of contraction in the chest area that I even thought about seeing a doctor.

Is the experience frustration or is it just a thought of frustration?

There is sensation of many bubbling movements in the body – that is the actual experience and a thought labels this to be frustration.

Yes it is so simple and that's why it's most often overlooked as thoughts come up complicating it :)
Self-referencing is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Yes, I can see that it is absolutely mystery and expectations can only spoil its heart. I am noticing that a few conditionings/illusions have been already falling apart as I am loosing interest in many things that “I” used to be driven by/to. This is very confusing for the mind, and there is appearance of emotionality but there is also recognition/familiarity that everything is the way it is. I also took your advice of not being hard with myself so I don’t feel that obsessed/confused about the intensity of this process.

This is quite 'important' to see clearly and also not to be too hard on yourself when thoughts do hook you.
And you could look at what is 'belief' in actual experience.

Yes, thank you so much for this pointing. Seeing this lifts so much of the weight of confusions, delays, and stuckness.

Oh yes, the fear of non-existence is one of the tricks of the illusion :)
You do exist just not the way you thought <3
I always wanted to see/enjoy this “cosmic joke” I heard about it...
Does the image of the face (seeing) and the memory appear in the same 'place'?

I am not sure if they appear in the same place, it seems like they appear parallel

Here's another exercise you can try in front of a mirror:
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror?

I don’t notice any connection between the felt sensation in the body and the sight in the mirror. Seeing feels different that sensing but the experienced jointly.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?

No

Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all?

Wow, no, the sight doesn’t suggest anything , it is neutral, doesn’t know anything, only thoughts suggest information. Ah, I didn’t see it that closely. Yes, there are only shapes and colours, possibly width, length and size.

Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?

Only thoughts and mental images

Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?

Only sensation

Start to walk slowly.Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?

Only sensation … where is the body, ha, ha …

Do you mean when a thought is let go of the thought of separation is not believed?

When there is let go of any belief

Yes the raw experience is what I was asking you to look at and you're clear on this :) It can feel very different when you start looking in this way. And are they 2 experiences?
Does What is judge what appears or does it allow all to be as it is?

Yes, I can see this , there is no discrimination over any experiences since there are only one experience. What is judge appears and it unfolds as it is. I get enjoyment and frustration from this looking in my daily life. I see these appearances to adjust as one.

Experience is a lot more from and as raw experience but there's acceptance that thoughts happen. Sometimes believing still happens and that is when I feel to look at this. But seeing through the illusion can look different to 'others' so the only way to find out is to look for yourself

Thank you for sharing this.

Is there an external and internal world? Can you find an inside and outside to experience?
Thought can't be used to 'figure life out' :) Does anything appear that is 'unknown' or is this a thought?

Ok, I can see this now. Only thought can say what is an external or internal and what is known or unknown, the pure experience is just happening. .. right …

In my opinion experience is a lot more reliable than thought but don't just take my word for it

I am seeing this for myself too. I keep looking at this on daily basis and I see more and more confirmation of it.

I still get a bit confused when listening to people. In the actual experience I hear their voice but the focus goes very quickly to what they are saying , so there is attention paid to contain of the thoughts and natural involvement into the story and the respond to the story.

It is very long email today. Thank you so much for your guidance.

much love x

divya

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

have you received my email. Your previous post seem to disappeared from the page. I wonder if there is any issue with the website.

Divya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

Yes there has technical difficulties while the website was being moved due to problems seeing posts. This should be resolved soon :)

I am just noticing many paradoxical states from apathy, excitement to frustration and anger. I follow your advice to stay with sensations in the body rather than spending time interpreting these states and making a story of them. This makes much easier to be with actual experiences. There is a lot of contraction in the chest area that I even thought about seeing a doctor.

This can take a bit of practice ha ha at least I found that to be the case :) There can be a lot of contraction/tension stored in the body but you can just stay with this also, not trying to change it - allow it to be and it should pass. If you are concerned by all means go to your doctor :) Frustration comes up because you've unveiled the illusion and thoughts and feelings will bubble up to the surface to try to stop this but once you've seen it can't be unseen.
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to 'resist'.

There is sensation of many bubbling movements in the body – that is the actual experience and a thought labels this to be frustration.

So without the label 'frustration' is there a problem?
Acceptance
Acceptance cannot be achieved.
Acceptance is not an action.
Acceptance is non-resistance.
Resisting something is an action.
Acceptance is to STOP resisting, thus to stop acting.
When resistance is stopped, then acceptance emerges naturally (by itself), without any effort.
So, acceptance is NON-DOING.
If there is an effort to accept something, it means that what is resisted is labelled as a ‘bad thing’. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be the need for accepting it. So the labelling “this is bad” comes first, then we try to cover it up (layer over) by enforcing acceptance onto the top of the resistance. How could acceptance then be possible?
By forcing acceptance, the ‘thing’ that was intended to get rid of is reinforced, because it was BELIVED to be ‘real’. By forcing acceptance, the resistance becomes even stronger.
But if the belief itself is questioned – meaning that it is seen that the ‘thing’ itself is totally neutral, it doesn’t have any innate attributes, only the thought label suggests otherwise – the seeming ‘badness’ of the ‘thing’ goes away, because it is not believed to be ‘real’ any more.
So NOTHING has to be done. It has ALREADY been ACCEPTED.

Yes, I can see that it is absolutely mystery and expectations can only spoil its heart. I am noticing that a few conditionings/illusions have been already falling apart as I am loosing interest in many things that “I” used to be driven by/to. This is very confusing for the mind, and there is appearance of emotionality but there is also recognition/familiarity that everything is the way it is. I also took your advice of not being hard with myself so I don’t feel that obsessed/confused about the intensity of this process.

<3 It can be very confusing to the mind/thought because mind/thoughts can't grasp and hold onto what has been uncovered.
Yes being compassionate is definitely very helpful and looking at 'Is there anything lacking right now?'
"How does it feel to just sit with no demands being put on you by the apparently outside world or thoughts?'
Don't think about these questions just sit with these questions and feel experientially the answer.

Yes, thank you so much for this pointing. Seeing this lifts so much of the weight of confusions, delays, and stuckness.

Yay :) Also don't wait for relief because what could be relieved? An appearance?

I am not sure if they appear in the same place, it seems like they appear parallel

Ok, I may have worded that incorrectly lol.
When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them.
For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…
of my foot...
...of my knee
of my chest...
In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.
Now point where others see your face.
What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you (think?) are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?
Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.
What do you find?
Then..Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like

I don’t notice any connection between the felt sensation in the body and the sight in the mirror. Seeing feels different that sensing but the experienced jointly.

I'm starting to see that an image is no less real than a so called visual sight. What is visual sight anyway? the eyes cannot see... so the visual sight is not applicable. Is what you label eyes anything more than a sensation?

Wow, no, the sight doesn’t suggest anything , it is neutral, doesn’t know anything, only thoughts suggest information. Ah, I didn’t see it that closely. Yes, there are only shapes and colours, possibly width, length and size

Yes, there are colours :) Is there shapes,width,length and size or is that thought labelling experience of the body?

Only thoughts and mental images

Yes :) thoughts and mental images are part of experience as in they arise but the content is not. How unreliable and untrue is that ;)

Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?

Only sensation

Yes :) Is there any boundaries or borders to this sensation?

Start to walk slowly.Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?

Only sensation … where is the body, ha, ha …

Ha ha...yes where is the solidity of the body? Can it be found without referring to thought or mental images?

Yes, I can see this , there is no discrimination over any experiences since there are only one experience. What is judge appears and it unfolds as it is. I get enjoyment and frustration from this looking in my daily life. I see these appearances to adjust as one.

Beautiful :) and how could it be any other way? There's no you so what would want experience to be different :)

Thank you for sharing this.

:) Was glad to share it.

Is there an external and internal world? Can you find an inside and outside to experience?
Thought can't be used to 'figure life out' :) Does anything appear that is 'unknown' or is this a thought?

Ok, I can see this now. Only thought can say what is an external or internal and what is known or unknown, the pure experience is just happening. .. right …

Once noticing of experience occurs, the actual experience is already in the past. Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ feel like - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ want to feel like - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ think - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what has happened in the past - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter whether there is seeking or not – This is IT! Is this true?
No matter anything - This is IT! Is this true?

WHATEVER it is – This is IT!
There is NO possible way of changing it, as it is already past the moment it is thought about.
Thinking, wanting, nothing cannot change it, because it is already done and dusted. Finished.

I am seeing this for myself too. I keep looking at this on daily basis and I see more and more confirmation of it.

Cool :) Keep looking until it's really clear. 100 times if you have to haha

I still get a bit confused when listening to people. In the actual experience I hear their voice but the focus goes very quickly to what they are saying , so there is attention paid to contain of the thoughts and natural involvement into the story and the respond to the story.

So when listening to people there is a sight + sound. What proof do you have that the sound is coming from them?
If you're talking on the phone what is the experience?
and is that experience any different from the sight + sound of a person apparently physically with you?

This is another long email,so you can split the experiments up into a couple of days if you like :)

much love x

Tanya

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

I found exercises in you previous email to be quite intriguing.

This can take a bit of practice ha ha at least I found that to be the case :) There can be a lot of contraction/tension stored in the body but you can just stay with this also, not trying to change it - allow it to be and it should pass. If you are concerned by all means go to your doctor :) Frustration comes up because you've unveil the illusion and thoughts and feelings will bubble up to the surface to try to stop this but once you've seen it can't be unseen.

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through? Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to 'resist'.

ah, the stories are so charming , the main one is that I will be now forever and ever by myself as I’ve lost interest in social interactions… seeing that there is no control over anything there is relaxation and then very quickly contraction happens as the mind fights for control … then thoughts appear Blah, blah,

So, acceptance is NON-DOING. NOTHING has to be done. It has ALREADY been ACCEPTED.

Thank you for this great reflection about NON-DOING. I can see that you point at the essence of true being – so effortless and yet so dynamic in its NON-DOINGNESS. I used to confuse it with the state of passiveness because the mind couldn’t grasp what this expression really points to. In my experience I dance between trust and no trust, control and no control but there is absolute intuitive resonance with what was described by your words.

'

Is there anything lacking right now?'
"How does it feel to just sit with no demands being put on you by the apparently outside world or thoughts?'

…. So free….

Now point where others see your face.
What do you see?

I can’t see that what the finger point at. There is nothing like colours, shapes or movement there. I only find that what can’t be seen. That what can’t be seen sees what can be seen. Weird… non appearance looks at appearance, nothing looks at everything….

the eyes cannot see... so the visual sight is not applicable. Is what you label eyes anything more than a sensation?

The eyes can’t see??? could you please guide me through this seeing?

Yes, there are colours :) Is there shapes,width,length and size or is that thought labelling experience of the body?

It feels like the visual sight is 3-dimensional. How do you know that there are only colures ?

Once noticing of experience occurs, the actual experience is already in the past. Is this true?

Is it because the actual experience is before a thought? And thought comes afterwards that describe it? so the experience gone before I have knowledge/thinking of it?
So this exercise is a bit like seeing that there are an appearance and disappearance, real and unreal, seen and unseen, truth and not truth, come and gone.

So when listening to people there is a sight + sound. What proof do you have that the sound is coming from them?

They move their mouth and sounds comes …. But I can only hear them when hearing happens ….hearing the sound happens within “me “ … perhaps there is no proof that sound comes from the image.

If you're talking on the phone what is the experience?
and is that experience any different from the sight + sound of a person apparently physically with you?

Only hearing … ok it is clear now , although bizarre.

Much love
Divya

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

ah, the stories are so charming , the main one is that I will be now forever and ever by myself as I’ve lost interest in social interactions… seeing that there is no control over anything there is relaxation and then very quickly contraction happens as the mind fights for control … then thoughts appear Blah, blah,

So charming but they have no real power do they? Does it say anything about you that social interaction is of no interest? Can you stay with the contraction without labelling it or fighting with it? Let the thoughts flow by too?

Thank you for this great reflection about NON-DOING. I can see that you point at the essence of true being – so effortless and yet so dynamic in its NON-DOINGNESS. I used to confuse it with the state of passiveness because the mind couldn’t grasp what this expression really points to. In my experience I dance between trust and no trust, control and no control but there is absolute intuitive resonance with what was described by your words.

:) Yes there's nothing passive in non-doing. It is not just 'giving up'. What is 'doing' things, anyway? Is it not just spontaneously happening? This is a shift from believing thoughts to feeling and seeing in raw experience.

Is there anything lacking right now?'
"How does it feel to just sit with no demands being put on you by the apparently outside world or thoughts?'

…. So free….

Ahhh yes :) Have you ever not been free?


[/quote]

I can’t see that what the finger point at. There is nothing like colours, shapes or movement there. I only find that what can’t be seen. That what can’t be seen sees what can be seen. Weird… non appearance looks at appearance, nothing looks at everything….

Yes as you aren't simply an appearance are you?
Does a sensation say it is the face?
Without labelling anything what is there?
Could it be that simple that you are What is and as What is?
Can any separation be found at all?

The eyes can’t see??? could you please guide me through this seeing?

What is the actual experience of the eyes?
Is there a sense of location found in the 'area of the eyes'?
Try closing your eyes and feel what is the experience first to get a feel for this
and then open them
Report back with what happened and we can go from there.

It feels like the visual sight is 3-dimensional. How do you know that there are only colures ?

Ok, look at the room you are in,what do you see? Are there colours all appearing together or is thought separating them into solid objects? For this investigation go purely with seeing - don't go with thoughts as these naturally interpret everything. You can look at an object close to you, what is it made up of without any concepts?
Here's an interesting exercise:
Take out a pencil or a pen and put it on the floor, on top of a coat or you lap. Relax and let us
inquire into the visual experience. Taking the visual experience on its own, without attending to
sound, touch, without relying on memory, history or science – what is our direct experience
related to the pencil?
Let’s investigate whether we see anything on the outside of what we see.
 Allow yourself to do these steps without rushing. Look slowly and directly – without thought,
memory, or theory: Going by direct visual experience, we see color and shape. A yellow that is surrounded by other
colors. These colors are arising arranged in various shapes. Allow your vision to focus on the
pencil color. This color is present.
1. Check your visual evidence for anything about this color that indicates a pencil lying
beyond it.
2. Check to see if there is anything that indicates a pencil that resembles this color.
3. Check to see if there is anything about this color indicating that there is a pencil causing
this color to arise. The color is present.
4. Check to see - is there anything about that color that points to a pencil somewhere else?
5. Check to see – do you see any unseen colors?

Is it because the actual experience is before a thought? And thought comes afterwards that describe it? so the experience gone before I have knowledge/thinking of it?
So this exercise is a bit like seeing that there are an appearance and disappearance, real and unreal, seen and unseen, truth and not truth, come and gone.

I'd like to hear your answers to these questions because I could tell you but it's more 'beneficial' for you to look for yourself.
I have started investigating time with you...got a bit enthusiastic ha ha. If you'd like we can look at that 'soon' :)

They move their mouth and sounds comes …. But I can only hear them when hearing happens ….hearing the sound happens within “me “ … perhaps there is no proof that sound comes from the image.

Keep looking at this can an image speak?

Only hearing … ok it is clear now , although bizarre.

Also if someone in 'another room' is heard or a sound what is the experience?

Love ,
Tanya <3

[tanyawilliams86]

Upon reflection it seems as though this investigation is going a bit 'deeper' than what we initially guide to on this forum.
I suggest we look more at 'separation' until you've 'gated'. To be honest I didn't start an thorough investigation of time or the body until after 'gating'.
If you're happy to continue this way then let me know

Much love,
Tanya

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

Upon reflection it seems as though this investigation is going a bit 'deeper' than what we initially guide to on this forum.
I suggest we look more at 'separation' until you've 'gated'. To be honest I didn't start an thorough investigation of time or the body until after 'gating'.
If you're happy to continue this way then let me know

Please guide me the way it feels the most appropriate. I trust you and follow your suggestions since I don't know what to expect. I get really excited when looking at senses and seeing how different the experience is from what I intellectually know about it. So I am very curious about it and there an urge to demystify everything.

So charming but they have no real power do they? Does it say anything about you that social interaction is of no interest? Can you stay with the contraction without labelling it or fighting with it? Let the thoughts flow by too?

The focus is on contraction, and sometimes on a story too. I see that the story is entangled with fear but after the investigation I can see these thoughts and fear have no real power. It becomes easier now because I take time to challenge every story and thoughts arising and sooner or later I see they are only illusions.

Yes as you aren't simply an appearance are you?
Does a sensation say it is the face?
Without labelling anything what is there?
Could it be that simple that you are What is and as What is?
Can any separation be found at all?

It looks like I am not an appearance as I can see all appearances.
A sensation doesn’t say it is face , it doesn’t know anything apart from its movement.
What is there is the point/space that observes.
Am I What is and as What is ? It feels like I am resonating with this … If I am What is and as What is there is no separation.

What is the actual experience of the eyes?
Is there a sense of location found in the 'area of the eyes'?
Try closing your eyes and feel what is the experience first to get a feel for this
and then open them
Report back with what happened and we can go from there.

The eyes see because when I move my eyes around I can see that the perspective of the vision changes. The location seems to be at the top of the body. When I close and open the eyes I still see just the vision is different .

Look at the room you are in,what do you see? Are there colours all appearing together or is thought separating them into solid objects?

Ok, colours are appearing together and the thought separates them into shapes.

what is our direct experience related to the pencil?

Seeing

In this exercise I couldn’t find any evidence that pointed to a pencil as an object . There was only colour among many other colours. These colors seemed to have undefined patterns.

I'd like to hear your answers to these questions because I could tell you but it's more 'beneficial' for you to look for yourself.
I have started investigating time with you...got a bit enthusiastic ha ha. If you'd like we can look at that 'soon' :)

I have answered now these questions to myself but I didn't know they are related to “time”.

Keep looking at this can an image speak? Also if someone in 'another room' is heard or a sound what is the experience?

I am keep looking at this…. After this exercise with the pencil and color I can see that there are no objects when seeing happens. Can an image speak? Well, it looks like it can’t speak as it seen only as a colour and heard as a sound appearing from nowhere.

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Divya,

Please guide me the way it feels the most appropriate. I trust you and follow your suggestions since I don't know what to expect. I get really excited when looking at senses and seeing how different the experience is from what I intellectually know about it. So I am very curious about it and there an urge to demystify everything.

Yes, I also get really excited by this investigation :) But it is best to keep the focus on 'getting through the gate' at the moment. There's no rush is there ;)

The focus is on contraction, and sometimes on a story too. I see that the story is entangled with fear but after the investigation I can see these thoughts and fear have no real power. It becomes easier now because I take time to challenge every story and thoughts arising and sooner or later I see they are only illusions.

Yes, there is fear because you're on to something :)Fear is not to be feared or even avoided; fear is our friend! It has many uses! It prevents us from walking off cliffs and from engaging in life-threatening exercises. But fear is not limited to protecting us from real danger; it also attempts to protect us from imaginary danger. The key is to look for what it is protecting!
When fear arises as we walk near a high cliff, what is being protected is the body. If the body should fall, and be broken, its life might cease, so fear attempts to protect the body from death.
But when fear arises as we search for a separate entity "self", what is being protected other than the belief in a "self"? "Self" is not an actual entity and cannot be harmed.

It looks like I am not an appearance as I can see all appearances.
A sensation doesn’t say it is face , it doesn’t know anything apart from its movement.
What is there is the point/space that observes.
Am I What is and as What is ? It feels like I am resonating with this … If I am What is and as What is there is no separation.

'What is there is the point/space that observes' - so it's fair to say you feel localized/contained in a body?
is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as face) or only thoughts link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

And with the presence of an image is there ANY localization or only thoughts suggest this?
Does it matter if there is an image or not (in terms of localization)?

So you are 100% sure that there is no separation?

The eyes see because when I move my eyes around I can see that the perspective of the vision changes. The location seems to be at the top of the body. When I close and open the eyes I still see just the vision is different .

We'll leave this part of the investigation for now, we can come back to it after we've finished this process :)

Ok, colours are appearing together and the thought separates them into shapes.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything :) Continue to look at this as it will bring clarity.

Seeing

In this exercise I couldn’t find any evidence that pointed to a pencil as an object . There was only colour among many other colours. These colors seemed to have undefined patterns.

Great looking! this is pure experience :)
Going by direct visual experience, we see color and shape. A yellow that is surrounded by other
colors. These colors are arising arranged in various shapes. Allow your vision to focus on the
pencil color. This color is present.
1. Check your visual evidence for anything about this color that indicates a pencil lying
beyond it.
2. Check to see if there is anything that indicates a pencil that resembles this color.
3. Check to see if there is anything about this color indicating that there is a pencil causing
this color to arise. The color is present.
4. Check to see - is there anything about that color that points to a pencil somewhere else?
5. Check to see – do you see any unseen colors?
 From this experiment our direct experience shows that we do not experience the outside of a
container the way the container metaphor suggests.

I have answered now these questions to myself but I didn't know they are related to “time”.

Cool, as you have all the tools to look at those questions and trust the answers that arise :) Don't worry about my feedback about the questions relating to time for now <3

I am keep looking at this…. After this exercise with the pencil and color I can see that there are no objects when seeing happens. Can an image speak? Well, it looks like it can’t speak as it seen only as a colour and heard as a sound appearing from nowhere.

:)' Well, it looks like it can’t speak as it seen only as a colour and heard as a sound appearing from nowhere.' <- Yes, you understand this as well as see it quite clearly.
We can look at there's no inside closer as well.

Much love,
Tanya

[Divya]

Hi Tanya,

Yes, I also get really excited by this investigation :) But it is best to keep the focus on 'getting through the gate' at the moment. There's no rush is there ;)

Sure x

Yes, there is fear because you're on to something :)Fear is not to be feared or even avoided; fear is our friend! It has many uses! It prevents us from walking off cliffs and from engaging in life-threatening exercises. But fear is not limited to protecting us from real danger; it also attempts to protect us from imaginary danger. The key is to look for what it is protecting!
When fear arises as we walk near a high cliff, what is being protected is the body. If the body should fall, and be broken, its life might cease, so fear attempts to protect the body from death.
But when fear arises as we search for a separate entity "self", what is being protected other than the belief in a "self"? "Self" is not an actual entity and cannot be harmed.

Thank you for these comments about fear. I am not that surprise that it arises during the investigation. Fear is actually not that intense like feelings of apathy that I am experiencing most of the time. It is not that easy for me to be in touch with sensations connected to this feeling. It feels unmoving in the body. It is very interesting to look at this as it is a state that I don’t experience that often. I know that all states are temporary but this particular one – lack of interest in doing things/activities has been with me for a while. I even tested myself by bringing from the memory my great dreams and they felt sweet but there was no big excitement about them. It feels weird but I also don’t feel concern about it.

What is there is the point/space that observes – is it fair to say that you feel localized/contained in the body.

This exercise was referring to the experience of the “face”, right? Please correct me if I am wrong. If I take away my memory about the face my experience is that I don’t know how it looks like as I can’t see it. I only experience sensations and there is a sense that through this sensation seeing is happening. When I called this experience – “the point/space that observes” that was what I meant and I possibly didn’t worded it well. I didn’t feel localised in the body in those experiences because without memory the body felt quite formless.

is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as face) or only thoughts link them?

Does “the sight ” means face in this context ? I was referring to “the sight” as seeing. It is a tricky one. I closed the eyes and I connected with sensation so called” face” and then I open the eyes and I could feel the sensation and see in the same time. Does seeing come form the sensation or the other way around? I don’t know. It is not clear yet.

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

yes, that was my experience that the visual sight and the sensation appear simultaneously. I can’t answer the other part of your question as I am not certain about it. The closest I come is that I can say that the sensation feels a bit different from seeing, so maybe there are just two different sensations which would suggest that seeing is also the sensation appearing.

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Yes, that seem to be close to what I am experiencing. They are appearing equally without any hierarchy , what links them is that they are: experiences or appearances.

And with the presence of an image is there ANY localization or only thoughts suggest this?
Does it matter if there is an image or not (in terms of localization)?

I am not sure now where the seeing is happening . The thoughts would suggest it is coming from the top of the body but it feels now that seeing doesn’t have any anchor and I am not sure where is localized.

So you are 100% sure that there is no separation?

When I look very closely I can see that everything is shapeless and non-localized, there is no confirmation that anything is solid or has a specific contour or it has its obvious beginning. It feels more like a movement, fusion or mixture so under this investigation I see there is no separation.

Much love

Divya