Denis, please post here

[Denis]

Hi Chris,

you are right the BS comment is a judgement. I was trying to be sure you knew the comments before that about the mind/body were based on direct observation, not something read or heard.

I have considered and observed the experience you referenced (i.e., heart beat, walking, etc). The intellectual understanding is here. I find no owner, no me. But I still react as though there is one. I don't feel liberated except when I think about no 'me,' only experiences.

Any suggestions?

thanks,
denis

[Chris]

Hi Dennis,

Considering this is not going to help you to see the actuality that there is no self. That’s why we suggest these exercises. Observation/direct experience is key. Just want to be clear on that.

Please recall your observations of heart beating, walking, etc. When you did these exercises and made the observation, it would have been seen that these actions are not initiated and controlled by a you. You don’t tell your heart to beat, you don’t tell your leg muscles to move in order to walk. A thought comes up after the action is taken that says I walked. Did the intention to walk come from a you?

Watch your thoughts. Where do they come from? Can you control them? Do you know what your next thought will be?

There is no you right now. You never existed. There is a body and a brain. That feeling of aliveness is not going to go away. Life will go on as it always has. The belief that there is a you that controls life can be seen as just that, simply a belief. Just like you no longer believe in Santa, once it is seen that the self is a fictional character, there will no longer be the belief that it is a real entity.

Do you react as though there is an owner of life, or are there actions and then thoughts that label them as yours? Are there thoughts that say, “I don’t feel liberated”? Are there thoughts that say, “I’m not there yet”? Check it. Who is thinking these thoughts? Are these thoughts true or are these thoughts actually causing that feeling of not yet being liberated? Check this for yourself. Let me know what you find.

[Denis]

Hi Chris,

Good question: "Do you react as though there is an owner of life, or are there actions and then thoughts that label them as yours?"
Difficult answer: I'd say I act as though there is an owner of this life. I don't consciously label thoughts or actions as mine.
Yes, there are thoughts that say I don't feel liberated, am not there yet. Perhaps they are causing the feeling of not being liberated since feeling arises from thought. My mind/body is thinking the thoughts. I call that 'me'.

So the feeling is caused by thought but the thought is not mine so how does one change the thought? Am looking for the one in charge and it comes back to mind/body and a stream of thought.

Puzzled,
denis

[Chris]

Hello Denis,

I re-read your entire exchange with Moonlight and I'd like to try something a little different, here it is:

There are raw experiences. Hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, tasting. There are sensations in the body (hunger, thirst, pain). This is what we refer to as direct experience. This is the level of experience of cats, dogs, birds, new born babies.

Then, there are thoughts. Thoughts layer concepts over these raw experiences. A thought or concept or label is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual and some point to other thoughts. This is the realm of make believe. This is the realm of I.

Is there an I in direct experience?

[Denis]

Great explanation Chris.

No, there is no I in direct experience. I think I understand. The I arises from labeling the direct experience. Excellent. I'll type those here for my benefit. Hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, tasting, hunger, thirst, pain). I'll watch for this today.

Would you say pleasure, fear, anguish, guilt, elation, or anxiety are 'direct experiences?'

thanks a bunch,
denis

[Chris]

Would you say pleasure, fear, anguish, guilt, elation, or anxiety are 'direct experiences?'
denis

Look closely at raw/direct experience. Do pleasure, fear, anguish, guilt, elation, or anxiety arise if there is absolutely no thought whatsoever about what is directly experienced?

[Denis]

Easy. No, the pleasure, fear, etc. don't arise without thought.

Would you suggest I watch closely for the I in direct experience and sensations?

thanks, denis

[Chris]

Hi Denis,

You just said two posts above "No, there is no I in direct experience." You can continue to look for the I in direct experience if you like, but you won't find it. You yourself already said it's not there.

For the sake of clarification, we are not looking for some special, spiritual state of oneness or perpetual bliss here. The entire focus of the inquiry is the simple realization that there is no I. No I who is the owner and doer of life. There is just life happening. It's not your life, it's just life.

You also stated "No, the pleasure, fear, etc. don't arise without thought." Aside from the experiences we labeled direct experience: Hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, tasting, hunger, thirst, pain, is there ANYTHING that arises without thought?

Thoughts layer concepts over these raw experiences. A thought or concept or label is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual and some point to other thoughts.

Watch your thoughts. Where do they come from? Can you control them? Do you know what your next thought will be?

Are you just a thought, Denis?

[Denis]

Yes, the image the mind creates of denis is make believe. Got it. Not a direct experience only concepts from layered thoughts. Nothing arises without thought. Very nice explanations, Chris.

I have been looking for a feeling of freedom from self-concept. The feeling exists due to thoughts that are conventional. In the conventional sense, "I" exist. In reality "I" is conceptualized from layered thoughts, both accurate and distorted, which lead to a make believe self. I like it.

thanks a ton,
denis

[Chris]

Awesome Denis. So, whatya thinking? Where does this leave you?

Do you exist? Do you "run your life"?

[Chris]

I know I've been "all business" about this up until now, I was just trying to help you to focus and look at this. Please, rant all you want, tell me how you are feeling, tell me what you're thinking, tell me where you are with all this. I am anxiously awaiting your reply! :)

[Denis]

Nope. I am not running my life. The stories and my self concept are make believe. I have never run it. Now I can see that.

Doesn't feel like a revelation at all, more like an acknowledgement. Sad we have to make stories out of experiences. Opinions, judgements, labels, likes, dislikes are not real but layers of thoughts. They make up our self concept: All the I likes, and I don't like, and I am an engineer, and I am a teacher, and I am a bum, and I am too old, and I am blah blah blah are just imagined.

As for your "all business" approach, you did get me to focus well. Your suggestion to "Look closely at raw/direct experience. Do pleasure, fear, anguish, guilt, elation, or anxiety arise if there is absolutely no thought whatsoever about what is directly experienced?" and others that were similar really helped.

I expected to feel liberated. I do, a bit. Less self blame, more letting go. I'll write more tomorrow.

Let me know what you think. Know that I appreciate your quick responses, interest, and dedication.

Thanks, Denis

[Chris]

Sounds like you're ready for the "final questions":

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Please answer in as much detail as you can from your own experience. I appreciate your quick responses, interest and dedication as well. Looking forward to your answers!!

Chris

[Denis]

I typed a reply answering the 5 questions, went back to see past posts and lost the whole thing. Reinforces the 'not in control' concept :-)

Am tired so I'll rewrite it tomorrow with a fresh outlook.

Thanks for waiting,
denis

[Denis]

Hi Chris,

1) Is there a me, was there ever?

No. I can understand 'me' is just a concept. Intellectually, it makes perfect sense. The concept is a construct of thoughts we've put together to create an image. Was there ever? Of course not or there still would be.

2) The illusion of separate self is an image, an image quite different than others see.

It starts as soon as we cognize direct experiences and begin labeling them, then attaching thoughts and an ID to them, at a very young age. As you have said so appropriately, it is a construct of thoughts layered over direct experience.

My guess is that the separate self ID has served as an evolutionary product for self preservation. Whoops, that's not a pun. It serves to keep us alive and perpetuate the species. I know it's highly speculative but it's my best guess.

3) How does it feel to see this?

I think I have said this before but I may have lost that post. It feels like an acknowledgement rather than a revelation. It feels somewhat liberated knowing 'I' am not to blame and not in control of every experience that this mind/body has or anything other mind/bodies may have experienced.

I had one day during this 'looking' that I thought was an awakening. It came during an especially blissful meditation when I was interspersing 'looking for ID' with meditating. Of course I didn't find the ID but came out feeling like a new person. The whole day was especially blissful and the desert and everything I encountered seemed perfect. No 'I' and the concept of 'I' seemed ridiculous. Everything was in harmony. Much of that bliss and feeling of everything being perfect just the way it is disappeared the next day, although the acknowledgement of no 'self' remains. That was just one day; since then the acknowledgement has remained strong.

There is a bit of disappointment that I still judge other persons' actions, perhaps even more now than before I began 'looking'. I ask myself: Is everyone delusional, distrusting, self-grasping, discourteous, rigid, opinionated or intolerant? This questioning makes me wonder if I am not still attached to a 'self' emotionally?

4) How would I describe it to someone who has never heard of this illusion?

I have tried. The reply was, of course, "What do you mean there is no 'I?' I proceeded with:

The concept is imaginary. The only reality is the direct experience. The image we have of 'self' is a construct of the thoughts that follow the experience, labeling the experience and layering thoughts over other thoughts and believing that to be the 'self.'

Next, I would ask that the person look for the 'I' in direct experience. Put a hand on the table. What do you feel? Is that a direct experience? Can you find your 'self' in the same way?

I don't know that I am comfortable explaining why mind/body is not defined as a 'self.'

5) I don't think there was a last bit that pushed me to look. I have been looking for months. Acknowledging the illusion was gradual. I think a big push may have been the "perfect" day in the desert following a very pleasant meditation. Although the bliss faded, my mind changed.

There are many things both Moonlight and you wrote that were particularly effective:

"It's like an imaginary baby we hold onto and cradle."

"So we use the label Dennis for the body/mind/character, but we know that there is no 'little Dennis in the head' controlling that character."

"A thought might trigger sensations in the body, because of an underlying belief in the thought. The sensations arise, and the mind labels it as 'anxiety'. And another thought arises, "I am feeling anxious", and this might lead to a whole train of thought as to how bad it is, what's going to happen, etc, etc. As it is, the sensation itself does not whisper to us, I am anxiety, this is Dennis feeling anxious, I am getting worse. Only thoughts, one after the other."

"Reactions, whether emotional or mental, are not erased automatically after seeing through the illusion of self, except in some very rare cases. Usually, habits, reactions, thought patterns remain but slowly and gradually 'wind down' when there is no "I" to stick to."

"Close your eyes and put your hand on the hard surface of the table/desk. Is the table touching sensation happening TO the hand/body (experiencer?), or is there an awareness of the hand/table contact sensation?"

"LOOK, don't think"

"You never existed. There is a body and a brain. That feeling of aliveness is not going to go away. Life will go on as it always has. The belief that there is a you that controls life can be seen as just that, simply a belief. Just like you no longer believe in Santa, once it is seen that the self is a fictional character, there will no longer be the belief that it is a real entity."

"There are raw experiences. Hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, tasting. There are sensations in the body (hunger, thirst, pain). This is what we refer to as direct experience. This is the level of experience of cats, dogs, birds, new born babies. Then, there are thoughts. Thoughts layer concepts over these raw experiences. A thought or concept or label is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual and some point to other thoughts. This is the realm of make believe. This is the realm of I."

"Look closely at raw/direct experience. Do pleasure, fear, anguish, guilt, elation, or anxiety arise if there is absolutely no thought whatsoever about what is directly experienced?"

"Watch your thoughts. Where do they come from? Can you control them? Do you know what your next thought will be? Are you just a thought, Denis?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks to you and Moonlight! I envy your patience.
denis