A guide for once and for all please

[Lauren]

Hi Vivien,

Missed a day here, took a "holy day of no obligation" as my partner likes to call it ... it usually entails staying in one's pajamas all day too. Though I did take that as a wonderful opportunity to explore the body questions and wow!

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or outside?

No to all of there, though I went through and "felt" them all one by one ... without any direct sensation happening there is no separation of the body, no boundary or apparent inside or out. There is no way to really discern where it begins or ends ...

What is the body in the actual experience?

So, the body is like "mind" ... it doesn't really exist, there are thoughts, but no one thing that is unified "mind" and so it is with "body" (as seen here) ... there is no unified thing called body, at least from the perspective of awareness ... it is just sensations coming and going and there doesn't seem to be any center of gravity per se ... there is nothing that would indicate that awareness (as always assumed) is connected to the body, especially in light of that not being nearly the solid substantial thing previously believed to be so.

Wow, again thank you Vivien!!!

Love,
Lauren

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

No to all of there, though I went through and "felt" them all one by one ... without any direct sensation happening there is no separation of the body, no boundary or apparent inside or out. There is no way to really discern where it begins or ends ...

Yes!

So, the body is like "mind" ... it doesn't really exist, there are thoughts, but no one thing that is unified "mind" and so it is with "body" (as seen here) ... there is no unified thing called body, at least from the perspective of awareness ... it is just sensations coming and going and there doesn't seem to be any center of gravity per se ... there is nothing that would indicate that awareness (as always assumed) is connected to the body, especially in light of that not being nearly the solid substantial thing previously believed to be so.

Very nice looking :)

The body doesn’t have awareness. Quite the opposite. The body is being ‘awared’ / experienced (as sensations and images).

But even that is not totally true. There is no separation between the so called subject and the object. All seeming separation created by thinking.

Saying that sensations appear in awareness is separation. So sensation can be observed from the distance (from the point of view of awareness). But there is no distance.

There is zero distance between the appearing thought and the awareness of it. The thought itself is the awareness of it. There is no sensation without the awareness of it, and there is no awareness without the sensation. None of them can stand alone. Actually, there are no two. They are one. They are the same. There is no subject-object relation at all.

Experience is not divided into a perceiving subject and a perceived object which are connected through an act of perceiving. There is only a seamless experience. Can you see this?


Love, Vivien

[Lauren]

HI Vivien,

Experience is not divided into a perceiving subject and a perceived object which are connected through an act of perceiving. There is only a seamless experience. Can you see this?

Oh wow, yes! That separation has always been imputed to experience ... but not so, any division is impossible ... I am kind of left speechless and giggling ... it really is so simple and there that the mind just kind of bounces off of it ... so interesting!! Thank you!!

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

Oh wow, yes! That separation has always been imputed to experience ... but not so, any division is impossible ... I am kind of left speechless and giggling ... it really is so simple and there that the mind just kind of bounces off of it ... so interesting!! Thank you!!

Beautiful :)

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Love, Vivien

[Lauren]

Hi Vivien,

I just wanted to drop a note to let you know I will be back to address tomorrow. There is confusion, it seems like a big snap back into contracted identification. What was seen can't be unseen, yet at this moment it does not seem to have the clarity that it did. Will address previous questions then too ...

Love,
Lauren

[Lauren]

Hi Vivien,

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Yes, this has been seen but it seems like the real heart of it has become hazy again. When it was seen directly, it was completely obvious and indubitable. And upon the really seeing there was a huge sense of relief, like a loosening of grip that had been clung to, that was never attached to any strings in the first place.

It feels like there is a struggle again, as if something is try to reassert itself, but what? It was seen that there is no center to it, no actual “I”, yet everything feels like a ball of uncertainty, insecurity, big wild emotions. And looking at it right now, there is an added layer of “this shouldn’t be happening” to put the cherry on top.

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Everything seems a bit hazy again … but yet this was seen in a snap that if there was no “I” that was doing anything, in charge, responsible or to blame … there could not be any “other” and all judgments suddenly seemed absurd. But again, at this moment there is hollowness to it … like remembering the realization vs. it being fresh and known directly now.

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

The first thing that popped into my head right now … “No there isn’t because if there were I certainly would not be choosing this as the experience of choice” … and I share that because I think that is telling that the root of the “I” belief has not been cut, or is still at play …

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

So, yes, there is a fair amount of confusion, so you have your work cut out for you it seems. It is funny, on one hand it would be embarrassing … this great proclamation a few days ago about seeing the rope as a rope and now this … but it is not, it is just happening. The last couple of days feels like I am being shaken upside down with thoughts and stories feeling like electric shocks, total identification with them happening ...
One thing that has come up over and over during the tumult is your question of distance … there is no distance between awareness and the thought, the emotion … I don’t know … like everything has been about the creation of 2 … to maintain that illusion of distance …

Thank you so much Vivien for your pointing, it is greatly appreciated!
Love,
Lauren

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

It feels like there is a struggle again, as if something is try to reassert itself, but what? It was seen that there is no center to it, no actual “I”, yet everything feels like a ball of uncertainty, insecurity, big wild emotions.

“It feels like there is a struggle again” – let’s investigate this very closely. Investigate all questions one-by-one, and reply to all separately. Don’t leave out any.

In the ACTUAL experience is there anything that could struggle, is there a struggler?
What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘struggling’?

“as if something is try to reassert itself” – What is the actual experience of the reassert-er?
What is the actual experience of ‘reasserting’?

“it feels like a ball of uncertainty, insecurity’ – What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘uncertainty’ and ‘insecurity’?

And looking at it right now, there is an added layer of “this shouldn’t be happening” to put the cherry on top.

What is it that wants to get rid of the current experience (whatever it might be)?

Is there actually an independent entity apart from the whole to be in or out of control, influencing or not influencing events or there are only thoughts about it?

“this shouldn’t be happening” – to what???

It is funny, on one hand it would be embarrassing …

What is it that could feel embarrassment?
“It would be embarrassing” – to what??
What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘embarrassment’?

this great proclamation a few days ago

What did a proclamation?
Where is that proclamation? Isn’t it just a thought appearing now?

The last couple of days feels like I am being shaken upside down with thoughts and stories feeling like electric shocks, total identification with them happening ...

“It feels like I am being shaken upside down” – what is the ACTUAL experience of the feeler?
What is the actual experience of ‘being shaken upside down’?

Is there anything in the ACTUAL experience that could identify?
What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘identification’?

Please reply to all questions one-by-one.

Love, Vivien

[Lauren]

Dear Vivien,

In the ACTUAL experience is there anything that could struggle, is there a struggler?

No, there is no thing to struggle ... to happening, to, on or from any source or thing ...

What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘struggling’?

A rapid series of hot thoughts and emotions with a visceral sense of resistance to them, it seemed like all attention was on this combo of "unwanted" thoughts, feelings and emotions ... and the unwanted was another layer of thoughts, feelings and emotions ... no central not-wanter. When the storm of tumult passed, there was nothing left of it ... no one

“as if something is try to reassert itself” – What is the actual experience of the reassert-er?

Thoughts and concurrent emotions circling around the notion of what should be happening and what this means. Yeah, simply more thoughts and emotions ... no thing there. Oh, hahaha, no scary monster in the closet ... Ok, wow, it is really funny how an idea, little story somehow has this seeming power ... the "reasserter, the I" ... and then with a good clear look, it reveals itself to be absurd ...

What is the actual experience of ‘reasserting’?

More thoughts and emotions, fear and trepidation of really taking a look in case something might be revealed, it really is the fear of another form of an "I" thought, followed by more thoughts about the meaning of what was seen when the curtain was parted. Thoughts there there was a "one" who saw and knew ... and that this one now had to hold on to it and continue to know ... it was thoughts chasing thoughts.

“it feels like a ball of uncertainty, insecurity’ – What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘uncertainty’ and ‘insecurity’?

Ok, wow this is interesting. There is a looking in thought for some thing that the thoughts can moor themselves to. Thoughts of looking for something real and solid, and when there is nothing solid found there is a sense of fear and panic, which is really just a visceral response in the body created by thoughts ...
Ok, snake eating its tail ... yep.

(To be continued ... I have to leave for a bit, so I need to come back to the other questions a tad later).

This is fantastic pointing, thank you!!
Love,
Lauren

[Lauren]

Hello again Vivien,

Sorry, I just realized that my second post in this this series did not go live. I posted a bit later that day and thought it was up and that the ball was in your court. So weird, it seemed to post fine ... then poof! So it goes ... going back and taking another look certainly won't hurt, so that is what I will do. I am engaged all day today, so may not be until this evening ...

Love,
Lauren

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

Yes, I waited for you to answer all the questions before replying. The site is not working properly sometimes, so before you press the ‘submit’ button, it’s worth copying the whole text by pressing ‘Ctrl + A’ then ‘Ctrl C’, so if the text is lost, you can insert it into a new window by pressing ‘Ctrl + V’. (But you may know how to do it :)

Love, Vivien

[Lauren]

HI Vivien,

Thanks for the tips! Ok here we go, back on it :)

What is it that wants to get rid of the current experience (whatever it might be)?

There is looking and nothing found, only thoughts and resistance felt in the body which when looked at tend to dissipate as well ... it is only thoughts.

Is there actually an independent entity apart from the whole to be in or out of control, influencing or not influencing events or there are only thoughts about it?

Only thoughts about it.

“this shouldn’t be happening” – to what???

Hahaha, exactly. There is no center, no thing to which anything is happening. It is interesting, now that some time has seemed to pass, there is nothing left of it, there is certainly no thing that has been effected.

What is it that could feel embarrassment?

Looking over and over and again, nothing is found :)

“It would be embarrassing” – to what??

Yeah, it is only thoughts ... no thing for them to stick to, no thing there.

What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘embarrassment’?

It is just thoughts, usually a looping series creating some form of a story. Then there is a physical accompaniment of sensations, clenched tummy, hot face and visceral resistance to the thoughts.

What did a proclamation?

Yeah, right. Just a thought, a believed thought. It is interesting that some thoughts seem to have so much juice behind them ... the idea of ownership, of an I, story of me, what have you. Upon looking, it is seen that none of that is true. Yet there still seems to be juice pumping into it, but what is that it, I don't know ... does that make sense?

Where is that proclamation? Isn’t it just a thought appearing now?

Yes!

“It feels like I am being shaken upside down” – what is the ACTUAL experience of the feeler?

OK, the feeler can't be found, there are feelings but no feeler. Everything that is looked at just becomes another feeling, another thought, but no feeler.

What is the actual experience of ‘being shaken upside down’?

It is a frenetic sense of being caught in a whirlwind of thoughts swirling around and then on top of them the compulsion to control or stop them. There was the sensation of trying to find some sense of ground or security. There was still the sense or notion (thought) that there was some one or thing that could find something to moor to.

Is there anything in the ACTUAL experience that could identify?

No, just thoughts upon thoughts.

What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘identification’?

It is just a thought, a believed thought. But believed by what as there is no believer to be found, yet some thoughts tend to have more energy to them, attention is paid. It is like a subtle battle goes on between certain thoughts that creates an energetic dynamic, and it just seems to happen.

Thank you for pointing so incredibly thoroughly and clearly, it is sooo greatly appreciated!!
Love,
Lauren

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

A rapid series of hot thoughts and emotions with a visceral sense of resistance to them, it seemed like all attention was on this combo of "unwanted" thoughts, feelings and emotions ... and the unwanted was another layer of thoughts, feelings and emotions ... no central not-wanter. When the storm of tumult passed, there was nothing left of it ... no one

“feelings and emotions” – OK… let’s see what is an emotion really.

An appearing ‘emotion’ like ‘fear’ or ‘happiness’ has three ‘components’:

• (a) a pure bodily sensation, like contraction or relaxation
  
  (b) a mental label stick to (layered over) the sensation, like “this is fear” or “this is contraction in the stomach” or “unpleasant” or “I am happy”
  
  (c) and simultaneously appearing mental images (pictures) about a certain body parts, like picture about the stomach or the chest

Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this is ‘sad’, ‘happy’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’, ‘bad’ or ‘good’?
Or ‘happy’, ‘sad’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’ are just mental labels on the pure sensation?
Does the pure sensation have any innate attributes, or is it totally NEUTRAL?

Is there REALLY ‘sadness’ or ‘sorrow’ or ‘suffering’, or are there only thoughts about ‘sadness’ or ‘suffering’?

So if you look very closely, you’ll see that there is neither sufferer, nor suffering. There are only thoughts ABOUT a sufferer and suffering. Can you see this?

It is just thoughts, usually a looping series creating some form of a story. Then there is a physical accompaniment of sensations, clenched tummy, hot face and visceral resistance to the thoughts.

“clenched tummy” - Is there really a clenched tummy, or just a sensation and a labelled as a ‘clenched tummy’?
What is the ‘tummy’ anyway? Isn’t it just a sensation + an image?

“hot face” – In the actual experience do you have a face or a head?
Or there is a mental picture derived from memory of the image in the mirror which is mixed together with the current sensations ‘of the face’?

“visceral resistance to the thoughts” – What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘resistance’?
Please don’t go to stories, and don’t write about a process… but go directly to the actual, immediate experience of ‘resistance’.

It is a frenetic sense of being caught in a whirlwind of thoughts swirling around and then on top of them the compulsion to control or stop them.

What is the ACTUAL experience of compulsion?
What is the ACTUAL experience of control?

It is just a thought, a believed thought. But believed by what as there is no believer to be found, yet some thoughts tend to have more energy to them, attention is paid.

“Attention is paid” – this implies that:

• (1) there is something that has attention
  (2) attention is an object that can move or shift
  (3) attention is separate from the other object that is being observed

But what is the ACTUAL experience of ‘attention moving’?
Is it really moving/shifting or does just simply an object appear (like thought, sensation, sight…)?

If there is no past, then how could attention shift or move? Compared to what?
Where is the previous moment when the ‘attention was on a thought’ but now it’s on a sensation?

Is there an ‘independent attention’ which could shift to an ‘independent now’ or to an ‘independent thoughts’?

Where is the dividing line between attention and the thought?
Can the attention be separated from the thought?

Where does attention end and the sensation starts?
Is there attention without an object (like sensation, thought, sound, taste)?
Is there an object (sensation, sound) without attention?

Thank you for pointing so incredibly thoroughly and clearly, it is sooo greatly appreciated!!

You’re very welcome :)

Love, Vivien

[Vivien]

Dear Lauren,

I’m going for a short 4-day long holiday today with no proper internet connection, so I won’t be able to reply during this time.

But please, post me every day, don’t stop looking because of this.
I suggest doing the above exercises, then going back and read some parts of our conversation, or even the whole, and do some exercises again. Please write about what have you found, or anything that is not clear.

Love, Vivien

[Lauren]

Wonderful Viven, enjoy!! I will do just that, thank you. (Have not had time to post the previous answers yet).

Love,
Lauren

[Lauren]

Hi Vivien,

Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this is ‘sad’, ‘happy’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’, ‘bad’ or ‘good’?

No, not at all.

Or ‘happy’, ‘sad’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’ are just mental labels on the pure sensation?

Yes, they are just labels. It has always struck me that doing "exciting" activities that involve an adrenaline rush and are considered "fun" have the exact same visceral experience that in other scenarios, ie with other labels, are considered scary or unpleasant - the only difference is the label.

Does the pure sensation have any innate attributes, or is it totally NEUTRAL?

No, nothing innate, totally neutral.

So if you look very closely, you’ll see that there is neither sufferer, nor suffering. There are only thoughts ABOUT a sufferer and suffering. Can you see this?

YES!

“clenched tummy” - Is there really a clenched tummy, or just a sensation and a labelled as a ‘clenched tummy’?
What is the ‘tummy’ anyway? Isn’t it just a sensation + an image?

Yes, wow, that is so funny, the image was always assumed to be so. But when looked at, there is no such thing as tummy that can be found ... there is a sensation but that doesn't even have a center or source either. Man this is fun!!!

“hot face” – In the actual experience do you have a face or a head?
Or there is a mental picture derived from memory of the image in the mirror which is mixed together with the current sensations ‘of the face’?

Yes, hahah, there is no face or head in the actual experience ... a passing sensation and then a picture of a red face pops up, that is it. Yeah, face is totally made up too!

“visceral resistance to the thoughts” – What is the ACTUAL experience of ‘resistance’?

It is simply a tension or clenching in the body ... that without the label "resistance" is nothing but a sensation

What is the ACTUAL experience of compulsion?

I have no idea, if that is actually looked at it doesn't mean anything at all. It seems to be a total wisp of smoke with nothing to it at all.

What is the ACTUAL experience of control?

This coincides with compulsion ... there is nothing. A visual that pops up is a hand trying to capture smoke, there is just nothing to it. Looking at control, and what that has seemed to mean from an unexamined perspective, and it literally doesn't compute if that makes sense ... there is so nothing there, it doesn't exist except for a word.

But what is the ACTUAL experience of ‘attention moving’?

Wow, OK, of course there is no movement because that would imply a focal point, a place in which to move from ... and there is no such thing at all.

Is it really moving/shifting or does just simply an object appear (like thought, sensation, sight…)?

so yes! An object just appears and the attention or awareness of that is actually one in the same.

If there is no past, then how could attention shift or move? Compared to what?

Exactly, as this no "space" for it to have been coming from, also there is not time ... attention/object appear, only here now

Where is the previous moment when the ‘attention was on a thought’ but now it’s on a sensation?

Hahaha, right! It does not exist ...

Is there an ‘independent attention’ which could shift to an ‘independent now’ or to an ‘independent thoughts’?

No. It strikes me that that notion would be infinity which actually collapses into one ... just one.

Where is the dividing line between attention and the thought?
Can the attention be separated from the thought?

There is no dividing line, they absolutely cannot be separated.

Where does attention end and the sensation starts?

They are not separate at all, so one does not begin and the other end.

Is there attention without an object (like sensation, thought, sound, taste)?

Wow, no they are intrinsically connected.

Is there an object (sensation, sound) without attention?

No, it would seem not ... from that there is the sense of tilt ... and silence. Hm, wow!!

Love,
Lauren