Guide unto no self.

[SoulEFX]

Hello LU community,

I would like a guide unto no self.

Thank you.

[JonathanR]

Hello SoulEFX,

(Would you like me to call you that or by a different name?).

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jon and I could guide you.

How did you come across LU? What do you hope to achieve or gain by 'no self' and what would it mean to you?

Warm regards,

Jon.

[SoulEFX]

Hello Jon,

You may refer to me as S0ul.

Thank you for being my guide.

How did you come across LU? What do you hope to achieve or gain by 'no self' and what would it mean to you?

I came across LU by seeking knowledge whether its reading books, searching the web, self inquiry, or experience. I have once realized no self and from that moment forward it has stuck with me, but I know the road is infinite and I just want to go further within. I believe the realization of no self gives you the freedom of identity. Empty of Self, Full of Divine. I can't really tell you what will come from further realizations, but since the first realization it has made my life more rich in every part of my life.

[SoulEFX]

Thank you Jon.

[JonathanR]

Hi Soul,

I have once realized no self and from that moment forward it has stuck with me,

That is interesting. And what you say about freedom from identity. Apart from this did you notice any other things that changed and how things were different?

I can't really tell you what will come from further realizations, but since the first realization it has made my life more rich in every part of my life.

That sounds good. Well, let's get on with this guiding process. We ask each person to agree to some fairly sensible ground rules at the start and I have written these below. Please read and agree to these. If there is anything you feel uncomfortable about or wish me to clarify just let me know.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.


If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Please read and agree to the following:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.



Now, please tell me what you think 'you' are?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

by the way, I am in UK time zone,

Warm regards,

Jon

[SoulEFX]

Hello Jon,

That is interesting. And what you say about freedom from identity. Apart from this did you notice any other things that changed and how things were different?

After the realization I remember just feeling as if I had weight lifted off my shoulders, I no longer felt any pressure in any way, because there really was no "I" to be pressured. The process I went through was that I laid down and tried to find who I was? or what I was? or what was the self? through deductive inquiry. The closest thing to a self that I got to was awareness. I think I am awareness, but that is just a thought that I am being aware of.

That sounds good. Well, let's get on with this guiding process. We ask each person to agree to some fairly sensible ground rules at the start and I have written these below.

I often smoke bud, should that be put aside as well? & I have read and agreed to the ground rules.

Now, please tell me what you think 'you' are?

No matter what I think I am, it is only a fleeting thought. I think I am awareness. I am the void, the silence, the absence, that is aware of that which is, aware of the noise, aware of the presence. Although, sometimes "I" (whoever that is) do feel that "I" get attached to the self that I am currently aware of through these senses. As in I still feel as a separate entity.

& I am in USA Eastern Time Zone,

Thank you Jon.

Blessings.

[JonathanR]

Hello Soul,

Thanks for your reply.

I think I am awareness, but that is just a thought that I am being aware of.

Ok. Understood. So there is a subtle sense of an 'I' that is aware of being awareness and of thoughts?

I often smoke bud, should that be put aside as well? & I have read and agreed to the ground rules.

If it gets in the way. It's hard to say that it would or wouldn't but if it seems hard to focus on this inquiry it might be a good idea to give it a break for a while. How does that sound? I'm disinclined to draw hard and fast rules about this sort of thing. You'll have a sense of whether it matters or not.

No matter what I think I am, it is only a fleeting thought. I think I am awareness. I am the void, the silence, the absence, that is aware of that which is, aware of the noise, aware of the presence. Although, sometimes "I" (whoever that is) do feel that "I" get attached to the self that I am currently aware of through these senses. As in I still feel as a separate entity.

This is a good description and it gives us some clues as to 'where' to look. Since you mention it, let's look for the self through the senses.

Let's take 'seeing' to begin with.
In standard communication, we say 'I see' and it may (or may not) be assumed that it is the body that is 'me' and 'my senses' doing the seeing.

So - Right now examine your experience.
The words on the screen are being seen. What are they being seen by?
From thought, we have the idea that 'I see the screen'.
So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.

Can anything be found? There is the thought 'I see', but is there actually an 'I' to be found that does the seeing?
If so, what is that?
Do you experience a body seeing? Or would you say that there is there just 'seeing'? Just the experience alone?


Best wishes,

Jon

[SoulEFX]

Hello Jon,

Ok. Understood. So there is a subtle sense of an 'I' that is aware of being awareness and of thoughts?

Yes as in I am aware of my senses and thoughts, even the thoughts of me being aware. But now that I digest your question more I realize that maybe I am not awareness, but awareness is aware of I. I apologize if I bounce back and forth between ideas, both seem equally true at the moment.

If it gets in the way. It's hard to say that it would or wouldn't but if it seems hard to focus on this inquiry it might be a good idea to give it a break for a while. How does that sound? I'm disinclined to draw hard and fast rules about this sort of thing. You'll have a sense of whether it matters or not.

Sounds good. I don't think it is taking away from my focus, but I do not want to hinder the process. I will cut back.

So - Right now examine your experience.
The words on the screen are being seen. What are they being seen by?
From thought, we have the idea that 'I see the screen'.

The words on the screen are being seen through my eyes, through my mind, & through I, reaching awareness. I am aware that words are being seen on the screen.

So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.

At this very moment I am seeing the words on the screen and no one else is. There is a subtle sense of just simply "seeing the screen" but when I ask myself what is seeing the screen it comes back to an 'I'. I am seeing the screen or rather the awareness contained in this body is seeing the screen.

Can anything be found? There is the thought 'I see', but is there actually an 'I' to be found that does the seeing?
If so, what is that?

There is no "I" that I can find as in, I know that Michael (My government name) is not seeing rather awareness is seeing the idea or illusion of "Michael."

Do you experience a body seeing? Or would you say that there is there just 'seeing'? Just the experience alone?

If it weren't for my body, and my eyes, how would I see? I do feel a sense of an "i" seeing, but when I try to see, all I see is seeing. I am not sure if I am making much sense to you. I find it quite hard to explain the inexplicable and the paradox.

I just had a moment of Deja Vu as if I have seen this before. Just had to point that out, Im not sure if it is relevant. Another thing I would like to point out is that when I shift my attention from my thoughts to my senses, I feel as if I see more clearly or seeing is more clear.

Thank you Jon.

Blessings.

[JonathanR]

Hello Soul,

Yes as in I am aware of my senses and thoughts, even the thoughts of me being aware. But now that I digest your question more I realize that maybe I am not awareness, but awareness is aware of I. I apologize if I bounce back and forth between ideas, both seem equally true at the moment.

No need to apologise. A bit like maths, it's not at all a bad idea to see your 'working out' written down. There is a lot to fruitfully explore in your post so I won't comment on everything you have said all at once but if I seem to leave anything out we will come to it in future posts.

Interesting that you are aware of thoughts of being aware and that 'awareness is aware of 'I'.

Let's stick with thoughts for now.

Do 'you' think thoughts or do thoughts think 'you'?

Let's say that awareness is aware of 'I', what would 'I' be then and where might 'I' be 'coming from'?

Sounds good. I don't think it is taking away from my focus, but I do not want to hinder the process. I will cut back.

Ok. That seems fair.

The words on the screen are being seen through my eyes, through my mind, & through I, reaching awareness. I am aware that words are being seen on the screen.

Try looking again at the screen. Without thinking about it but just noticing the direct experience of seeing, is there an experience of 'eyes seeing'? Is there a detectable sensation of words 'passing through mind and reaching awareness'? Or, is there simply seeing?

If it weren't for my body, and my eyes, how would I see? I do feel a sense of an "i" seeing, but when I try to see, all I see is seeing. I am not sure if I am making much sense to you. I find it quite hard to explain the inexplicable and the paradox.

No. This is good. There are two ways of looking at this, or rather, one way is like looking and the other way is thinking about it. Isn't that right? Whatever thoughts may say about the reasons for being able to see there is the actual experience of seeing. Any thoughts about it are thoughts about it aren't they? Do you notice that thoughts are somethig extra, added on to the raw sensation of seeing?

]I just had a moment of Deja Vu as if I have seen this before. Just had to point that out, Im not sure if it is relevant. Another thing I would like to point out is that when I shift my attention from my thoughts to my senses, I feel as if I see more clearly or seeing is more clear.

We will look at sense experience a bit more, soon.

Best wishes,

[SoulEFX]

Hello Jon,

Do 'you' think thoughts or do thoughts think 'you'?

I think my thoughts think me.. Who am I that does the thinking is a thought that comes to mind. I witness thoughts. I witness thoughts of I. I witness myself trying to direct my thoughts so that I may answer your question.

Let's say that awareness is aware of 'I', what would 'I' be then and where might 'I' be 'coming from'?

If awareness is aware of I, 'I' would be my senses and my thoughts. This 'I' coming from nowhere, it just goes where I focus my attention on.

Try looking again at the screen. Without thinking about it but just noticing the direct experience of seeing, is there an experience of 'eyes seeing'? Is there a detectable sensation of words 'passing through mind and reaching awareness'? Or, is there simply seeing?

Through direct experience there is simply seeing.

No. This is good. There are two ways of looking at this, or rather, one way is like looking and the other way is thinking about it. Isn't that right? Whatever thoughts may say about the reasons for being able to see there is the actual experience of seeing. Any thoughts about it are thoughts about it aren't they? Do you notice that thoughts are somethig extra, added on to the raw sensation of seeing?

Yes, I do notice that thoughts are something extra. Thoughts are what pushes us to make sense of the world, it is our way of logic and reasoning. I am picturing a jelly fish. Simply being. But if you give it a basic brain it will have instincts and feelings that guide it. And if you give it a more complex brain it will have thoughts on how it may live. It is how we evolved. Just to share a few thoughts if I may.

Thank you Jon,

Blessings.

[JonathanR]

Hello Soul,

I think my thoughts think me.. Who am I that does the thinking is a thought that comes to mind. I witness thoughts. I witness thoughts of I. I witness myself trying to direct my thoughts so that I may answer your question.

Yes. Thoughts do seem to think 'me','I', 'mine', don't they? That creates a strong impression that 'I am here, doing the thinking', doesn't it?

Now if there were a 'self' that 'causes' thinking, surely it would be possible to know what the next thought is going to be before it happens? But is this ever the case? It should be possible to experience only creative or positive thoughts but does that happen? In fact, is it possible to control thoughts and in particular, can a thought be prevented from appearing? Try preventing a thought from appearing. Try preventing a thought from disappearing. Is it possible? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'?


Best wishes,

Jon

[SoulEFX]

Hello Jon,

Is it possible? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

No, thoughts seem to appear and disappear on their own. I am just the witness, but the witness is not me. Does that make sense?

Thank you Jon,

Blessings.

[JonathanR]

Hi Soul,

No, thoughts seem to appear and disappear on their own. I am just the witness, but the witness is not me. Does that make sense?

.

Yes it does. We will come back to thoughts fairly soon but we will turn attention to the body for now. A while ago you said this

At this very moment I am seeing the words on the screen and no one else is. There is a subtle sense of just simply "seeing the screen" but when I ask myself what is seeing the screen it comes back to an 'I'. I am seeing the screen or rather the awareness contained in this body is seeing the screen.

This idea that the self, awareness or consciousness is contained within the body is very common. Try the following exercise:

Sit confortably where you won't be disturbed for a while and simply listen to sounds. There may be the hum of some electrical thing or the quiet sound of breathing. There may be distant sounds of voices or a car passing by. Just epxerience the immediate sensations of hearing.

Now, is it possible to find a place or edge where 'you' finsh and 'sound' starts?

Are there 'ears' 'doing hearing', is there a 'me' 'hearing' or would you say there is the hearing alone?

Now notice a more distant sound. Where, exactly, do 'you' end and 'the sound' begin?


Best wishes,

Jon.

[SoulEFX]

Hello Jon,

I have been pondering your question since I have received it. I haven't found the time to dwell on it and respond to you, since I work heavy on the weekend, but I will be responding tomorrow.

Thank you Jon,

Blessings.

[JonathanR]

OK Soul,

Thanks for letting me know.

Jon