A bit worried about this process.

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

No. Well sometimes when thought says "do you see this, really? Are you sure?"

But you see them – yes? I meant though when back in the basics?

Thoughts are just being followed with no one in control. I guess as long as it's seen then there are no worries. I notice tons more stuff now than when I first started. In fact, noticing is all there really is, because there's no one to experience anything is there?

No one maybe – but is there experience? And again how are ‘you’ separate from it? And where does suffering happen? Look.

There are thoughts still arising wondering what will happen next. What will it be like when there are no more posts to LU, trying to make up a new story to follow or get lost in. But I can see what's happening and what they're up to.

Well – we can still talk. Im not going anywhere yet! I will pm you later on about that. OK.

Things are starring to calm down a bit now.

What if they don’t stay like that? Is calming down another reflection in that mirror – regardless of what thoughts want to have stay around?


So a little checking exercise! Have a go at the below – lets see if there are any more questions?

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
Big hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

No one maybe – but is there experience? And again how are ‘you’ separate from it? And where does suffering happen? Look.

Yes there is still experience but not experienced by anybody called "me". What experiences stuff and notices stuff is the same thing - the same awareness we talked about before. Suffering comes about when thought or thoughts want something other than what is here now, and the 'I' thought says " these are 'my' thoughts, this is what 'I' want " etc.

Things are starring to calm down a bit now.

What if they don’t stay like that?

Well that's OK too. I can see this now. Whatever happens is just what happens. The important thing is that I can see it's not happening to 'me'. It's just happening.

I've had a go at those questions you gave me. I've tried to answer as honestly as I can .
Here goes ........

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No. It doesn't exist in reality. The thought of a self still comes up but I can see that its not real.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No. There is no control by anyone called 'me' inside my head. Decisions are made, but not by this thought concept called 'me'. I can't see a decision being made or how the process works. Decisions seem just to happen. It would be nice to see how this process works but I'm not sure if that's possible.

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Oops I've answered that question in the answer above !

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No. Thoughts just arise. I can't make them come. And I can't make them go away. There is constant narrative and comment going on about things that arise. This is part of the 'I' illusion, but when it's noticed that it's happening, it stops.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes. The thought that 'this is my body' is not true. It's just a body that does not belong to anyone. Awareness notices sensations that arise within it. The thought that 'I can feel something, or see something is incorrect, this is just an attachment to a feeling or sensation created by thought.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

No. There is no one that does seeing or hearing or taste etc. These sensations are just there as a result of sensory organs in the body just doing what they were designed to do. No 'I' is in control of this.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No. There is no self except as a thought. Thought is part of what is. Nothing that is experienced is separate from what is. And nothing that is, is separate from anything else that is.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No. There is no doubt, but sometimes forgetting happens in the heat of one moment or another. I guess that's just the way it is.

Take care,

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hey Rich
Do you feel the illusion of self has been revealed? If so what remains?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

Sorry for the delay but I had to take some time to consider my answer.
I have to say that I do understand everything that you've helped me to look at, and on occasions I do feel that there is no self. However I don't feel this most of the time during the course of a normal day, only when I stop to look. Sometimes under stress etc I feel as lost in a sense of self as I ever was. I know we talked about expectation etc but I was expecting that if the illusion of self has been truly revealed, then these moments of freedom from self would be more obvious, more frequent, and independent of what was happening in life. Maybe I'm just trying to persuade myself that I see it when really I'm not fully convinced.

I know I should be certain, in the face of all the evidence. You've given me the means to see this illusion, so I don't know what more you can do to help me see it.
Can't quite put my finger on what the problem is.
Sorry, feel like a bit of a failure ......

Rich
[quote][/quote]

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

Thought is saying " is that it then ?" And I see that thought is putting forward doubts that realisation has happened. Bringing out the big guns like you said earlier! My experience however, when I bring it back to basics, is that I still can see that the "I" is not real and that there is no control.

Sorry for the delay but I had to take some time to consider my answer.
I have to say that I do understand everything that you've helped me to look at, and on occasions I do feel that there is no self. However I don't feel this most of the time during the course of a normal day, only when I stop to look. Sometimes under stress etc I feel as lost in a sense of self as I ever was. I know we talked about expectation etc but I was expecting that if the illusion of self has been truly revealed, then these moments of freedom from self would be more obvious, more frequent, and independent of what was happening in life. Maybe I'm just trying to persuade myself that I see it when really I'm not fully convinced. I know I should be certain, in the face of all the evidence. You've given me the means to see this illusion, so I don't know what more you can do to help me see it.
Can't quite put my finger on what the problem is.

The riddles are all of your own making and is created by thought. The mind has a compulsive need to over complicate matters! Do you see this? Who or what needs convincing? Anything? Nothing? Who or what is waiting on expectation? Anything? Nothing?

Now that you realise (even if for only short periods) that ‘I’ was always a story, do you recognize when you are operating from that story? And to recognise looking happens – yes?
Looking doesn’t stop. Searching does. Here 2 years since 'gating' and looking happens regularly. So when story is spotted :)! When recognition of ‘lost in self’ happens :)!
Big Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

The riddles are all of your own making and is created by thought. The mind has a compulsive need to over complicate matters! Do you see this?

Yes I do. I read back yesterday's posting and kind of regretted saying all that because today things feel different. Yes I still get lost in thought, lost in me, but I recognise it. Sometimes while it's happening, sometimes after - but it doesn't matter when seeing happens does it! And like you've said before, nothing stays the same. There will be times when I get lost in thought and maybe feel as if I'm back where I started again with thought saying "nothing is different, you don't really see anything - blah blah blah". That's just another wave on the sea.

Who or what needs convincing? Anything? Nothing? Who or what is waiting on expectation? Anything? Nothing?

No one, and nothing. It's all just thought going on about what things should be like, and this should be happening and that shouldn't etc. It's all pretty meaningless - holds no substance, and isn't real. It can still drag me along with it though. Like when you watch a good film and you end up hoping Bruce Willis saves the world again, or Matt Damon escapes in a car chase. It's not real but while you're watching, it's convincing enough to draw you into the story and identify with the characters. Usually afterwards it's seen for what it is.

Now that you realise (even if for only short periods) that ‘I’ was always a story, do you recognize when you are operating from that story? And to recognise looking happens – yes?

Yes. Looking still happens a lot. I do recognise when I'm operating from a story. Sometimes I have to take a minute, relax and look at what's happening, what story thought is concocting this time, in order to see it fully.

OK. I'll try to smile more, and not let thought get in the way of what's real. And I'll not stop looking .....

Love
Rich.

[Sarah7]

So then Rich
Have you seen through the illusion of self? This is not to be thought about! LOL. Look.
Are you ready for some final questions?
Big Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

Yes I've seen through the illusion and am ready to have a go at the final questions ..

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

Yes I've seen through the illusion and am ready to have a go at the final questions ..

OK – so take as much time as you need. Describe in as much detail as you feel is needed. I will have a look and see if there are any issues that may still need to be looked at and if not – then Ill get some other guides to check Ive not missed anything! LOL. OK!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?
Big Hugs Sarah xxxxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

I'm going to make a start on those questions now. I may not complete them all today but may do it over a couple of postings of that's OK .

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. I've looked and can't find a separate self anywhere. It's just a thought concept.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is an idea created by thoughts to try to explain the way things are experienced. Thoughts create a label which tags experiences as "mine", or things are happening to 'me'. For example if an emotion or sensation in the body arises, thoughts label it with the 'I' thought - this pain is in 'my' back, or this sadness 'I' am feeling. Then a story is built up to explain why sadness is being experienced (or whatever feeling has arisen), and more thoughts arise possibly using memory or predictive thinking to reenforce the story.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It's taking a bit of getting used to. I see the unfolding of thoughts and their stories and how they create scenarios that have no place in reality. I can see how the 'I' thought gets attached to sensations and emotions that arise. I still experience the thought of 'i' or 'me', but I see it as just a thought when I look at it fully.

Before I started this dialogue, I had noticed already the way that thought created stories to try to explain our predict things. But I still believed that these thoughts were mine, that there was an 'I' who originated each thought stream and that the thoughts belonged to 'me'. Now I see that thought is not started by a 'me', thoughts just occur. I don't know where they originate from (perhaps that can be explored later - does anybody know the answer to this ?).

If an idea occurs, the thought ' that's a good idea of mine' comes along after it. I can see now that the thought that the idea was mine comes after the original thought. This is an example of thought claiming ownership when in fact there was no 'me' that made the original thought come in the first place.


That's all for tonight Sarah. I'll do some more tomorrow .....

Take care,

Rich

[Sarah7]

That's fine Rich. Thanks for that so far! S xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

I've got some more answers for you ....,

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Well, I have to say that it was a culmination of things. I was constantly looking for an experience. I had an expectation that something big would happen. But it took a while to realise that that was never going to be the case, and after that realisation I began to look and reexamine what I had already seen to be true. I went back to look again at labeling and there was a strong sense that 'I' was just another label created by thought. It made complete sense that there is no 'me' in here, it's just a label!

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

The idea that decisions are made and that there is control over events is a strong part of the illusion. It took a while for me to see that decisions are made but the thoughts that they are made by 'me', appear after the decision. For example I can set of on a journey and a decision is made to go by a certain route. The thought about the decision is noticed after the decisive turning is made which puts me on that route.

Do I make anything happen? Well, things do happen. Sometimes things happen which involved interaction by me, but there is no 'me' that makes them happen or that they happen to. They just happen. The idea that they happen because of 'me' comes up after the event.

6) Anything to add?

Except to say that I've really enjoyed the whole process even the confusing and frustrating bits. There were times when I thought I'd never get it, but you didn't give up on me. So I'd like to say thanks very much for that. You're a very patient person.

I'll miss posting to LU and I hope there is a way to keep discussion open as I feel there will be more questions come up about the nature of things - like where do thoughts come from, where do they go, and what exactly is it that notices?

Thanks Sarah,

Love Rich.

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich
Answers have gone to other guides. Depending on who is about will depend on how fast any other questions come! So please can you keep checking in. Ill let you know when I pm you! OK!
Big hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah

Ok no problem.

[Sarah7]

Welcome Rich!
No questions!!!!!! I have pm'd you!
Lots of love Sarah xxx