Asking for guidance

[Lalita]

Thought thinks about it but what picks up the cup in actual experince?

yes thought think about it and they don't pick up the cup. I don't know what actually picks up the cup

Yes. Look at this now. Is there an 'entity' that 'does' this seeing?

I could never find any entity

'Observing consciousness' implies a 'self' that 'watches everything'. But turn around and look for 'self'. One can't be found, can it? . Yes, thought keeps asserting 'self exists', 'self is aware'.

and again. it is nothing to be found. that observing consciousness seemed the last that I could find. but it is just that, consciousness. I can't find any entity. yes it is only thought that I am the awareness.

But look. Does this 'seeing everything' have an owner or a doer; does it?

wow that seeing does not have an owner. and there is a strong urge arising that there should be a doer, a self. where does this urge comes from? also just a thought? that is crazy.

Imagine for a moment losing any thought that the 'seeing everything' is noticed by a 'me'. Would the absence of "me' prevent 'seeing everything'?

no actually this happened quite a lot of times that there was no me and the time stopped. only when the I came back, the clock was moving again. everything functions without a me, it seems

You did not answer one question that is important. Here it is again.. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

j
wow I didn't see the whole question. no I can't control thoughts from arising, including the thought of an I.
ok the thought of I had created this identity of an I, a self. even I kept looking and saw I'm not this body with emotions and thoughts. still the thought of I had hidden behind the observing awareness.
"I" see there can't be an "I". and still I feel like a person. unless I go down and look and see there is nothing. but what do I do in daily life in every moment?

thanks for your patience
Lalita

[JonathanR]

wow that seeing does not have an owner. and there is a strong urge arising that there should be a doer, a self. where does this urge comes from? also just a thought? that is crazy.

Notice this urge arising. As you say, seeing has no owner at all. From all your observations a 'self' has not been found yet a strong urge arises that there 'should be a doer'. Notice the thought component of this.

Shortly before fully seeing through the illusion of a separate 'self' a fear or reluctance can be experienced. This fear reflex is because there is a perception that something is threatened. This fear needs to be acknowledged. It has been doing a good and loyal job of protecting a 'self' that has been imagined to 'exist. But actually there never was a 'self' that could be 'threatened', only the perception of this. Do you see?

Allow this urge or fear to be experienced. Don't resist it. Acknowledge and thank it for its loyalty and love. Perhaps even talk to it and encourage it to see that it can relax,

j
wow I didn't see the whole question. no I can't control thoughts from arising, including the thought of an I.
ok the thought of I had created this identity of an I, a self. even I kept looking and saw I'm not this body with emotions and thoughts. still the thought of I had hidden behind the observing awareness.
"I" see there can't be an "I". and still I feel like a person. unless I go down and look and see there is nothing. but what do I do in daily life in every moment?

It is not quite that there is 'nothing', is it? Daily life will go on. Work, family, friends will go on appearing, as will some thoughts of 'I' and of 'being a person'. It is just that these thoughts have been seen through. Though there is no 'self' and no 'doer' this does not mean that 'nothing' will 'get done' does it? For example, even before there is any idea that there may not be a 'self', much of the time when we drive a car we are oblivious to the 'doing' of the 'driving'. Have you noticed. this? It's actually extremely funny! Somehow it happens anyway!


Best wishes,

Jon.

[Lalita]

But actually there never was a 'self' that could be 'threatened', only the perception of this. Do you see?

Yes I'm starting to see it also during the day. Like today I saw so many things that action seems to just arise, sometimes even against the person's wish. is that what Yogis call Samskaras? That past Impressions will arise and play themselves out. And Free Will is a joke then too without having a self. Just another Illusion and thought.
There is still resistance to let go even of the I as the Observer of that Play. I experienced depression in the last few month while digging deeper. The fear is that if there is no more Self, what sense does life make and there is even no sense in living. I'm amazed how a thought can do that.

It is not quite that there is 'nothing', is it? Daily life will go on. Work, family, friends will go on appearing, as will some thoughts of 'I' and of 'being a person'. It is just that these thoughts have been seen through. Though there is no 'self' and no 'doer' this does not mean that 'nothing' will 'get done' does it? For example, even before there is any idea that there may not be a 'self', much of the time when we drive a car we are oblivious to the 'doing' of the 'driving'. Have you noticed. this? It's actually extremely funny! Somehow it happens anyway!

With nothing I mean just the Illusion of "me". yes life goes on. And it seems that things get done smoother and easier without all the personal drama. I had a few weeks of absolute happiness and silence a few month back and the amazing thing was, there was no fear at all. I don't know if the person dissapeared or not but there was silence even there were still thoughts and emotions but they couldn't touch.
yes extremely funny.

you actually never walk through the gate its seems. it just dissolves.
there are moments the seeing is so easy. and then there are moments with much drama and emotions. this "I" can't get enlightened, it never existed in the first place.
I was driving in the car today and listening to music. but the music was everywhere. no I heard it

So much gratitude to you for pointing

[JonathanR]

Thanks for your reply Lalita,

So much gratitude to you for pointing

You are very welcome. You are doing very well.

Yes I'm starting to see it also during the day. Like today I saw so many things that action seems to just arise, sometimes even against the person's wish. is that what Yogis call Samskaras? That past Impressions will arise and play themselves out.

Sometimes this may appear to happen and certainly some actions do seem to just arise. But about Samskaras, what you describe there is a traditionally held belief or model or story about the 'way things work', isn't it? That 'actions have consequenses'? There is nothing 'right' or 'wrong' with the idea. Other religious systems and philosophies have their own stories . But can these be explored or verified by directly examining experience? It was this that allowed us to ascertain that a separate 'self' could not be found and that 'self' appears as thought content, wasn't it?
[/quote]

And Free Will is a joke then too without having a self. Just another Illusion and thought.

Yes, Free Will and Choice. We can explore this a little if you like but you seem clear about it?

There is still resistance to let go even of the I as the Observer of that Play. I experienced depression in the last few month while digging deeper. The fear is that if there is no more Self, what sense does life make and there is even no sense in living. I'm amazed how a thought can do that.

Noticing resistance is good. It can't be long before letting go happens simply because it happens. It is curious how liberating it is once 'Self' is seen as thought. Just remain aware of this fear and allow it to flow past. Nothing will 'die' or be rendered 'meaningless' Quite the contrary.

Find time to go for a walk in Nature. Perhaps a park or by the sea. Give yourself a little time and maybe by yourself. Everything will be alive, moving, and expressing life. Trees, wind, sun, rain, grass, animals, insects, people. Now, is it possible to find a line between 'you' and 'everything else'? Is there one that 'experiences nature' or is there just Aliveness?

you actually never walk through the gate its seems. it just dissolves.
there are moments the seeing is so easy. and then there are moments with much drama and emotions. this "I" can't get enlightened, it never existed in the first place.
I was driving in the car today and listening to music. but the music was everywhere. no I heard it

This is great Lalita.


Best wishes,

Jon.

[Lalita]

Sometimes this may appear to happen and certainly some actions do seem to just arise. But about Samskaras, what you describe there is a traditionally held belief or model or story about the 'way things work', isn't it? That 'actions have consequenses'? There is nothing 'right' or 'wrong' with the idea. Other religious systems and philosophies have their own stories . But can these be explored or verified by directly examining experience? It was this that allowed us to ascertain that a separate 'self' could not be found and that 'self' appears as thought content, wasn't it?

No I can't explore them through my own experience. I like that. That is very easy. Yes only direct looking and

experience allows me to confirm there can't be a self found.

Yes, Free Will and Choice. We can explore this a little if you like but you seem clear about it?

When I see it through direct experience, it looks like everything is just a thought. A belief from my mind. yes I think I'm clear.

Noticing resistance is good. It can't be long before letting go happens simply because it happens. It is curious how liberating it is once 'Self' is seen as thought. Just remain aware of this fear and allow it to flow past. Nothing will 'die' or be rendered 'meaningless' Quite the contrary.

I get a feeling of that liberation even I'm not there yet.

Find time to go for a walk in Nature. Perhaps a park or by the sea. Give yourself a little time and maybe by yourself. Everything will be alive, moving, and expressing life. Trees, wind, sun, rain, grass, animals, insects, people. Now, is it possible to find a line between 'you' and 'everything else'? Is there one that 'experiences nature' or is there just Aliveness?

I live in a retreat center in sedona, AZ and it's perfect here. I am always talking walks alone in nature here. yes I can definitely feel that aliveness. And yes there still seems to be a line between me and everything around me. I can't feel I'm everything yet. I can feel trees, animals, people. but we are not one. I am not 100% experiencing what they do. so that seems to separate me still. just another thought that I have to examine.
Do I just confirm there is no I in each moment with each experience? or do I go into beliefs and look until I see it's just a thought.
only thinking it does not really help. I have to go in detail until there is no more possibility to belief the thought

Lalita

[JonathanR]

No I can't explore them through my own experience. I like that. That is very easy. Yes only direct looking and
experience allows me to confirm there can't be a self found.

Good. It is pretty clear, isn't it?

When I see it through direct experience, it looks like everything is just a thought. A belief from my mind. yes I think I'm clear.

Good. Here is a little exercise that reveals something (or nothing)...

This has to do with 'Choice' and the 'Chooser'. Place both your hands on a table in front of you. In a moment one hand must be raised in the air but not the other. See if it is possible to find the exact 'choice-point, where one hand was chosen but not the other. This may involve waiting for a while but sooner or later one hand must be 'chosen' over the other. Do you find a chooser? What do you notice?

I get a feeling of that liberation even I'm not there yet.

'You', the thought, can never be liberated, because that is a thought and not a real entity. But is it not already noticed that there has never been a real 'self' to 'gain liberation'? Is there a 'there' to 'get to'?

I live in a retreat center in sedona, AZ and it's perfect here. I am always talking walks alone in nature here. yes I can definitely feel that aliveness.

Wow Lalita! That's ideal.

And yes there still seems to be a line between me and everything around me. I can't feel I'm everything yet.

That is because you are expecting something like - 'feeling that I'm everything' - to happen. This is a subtle attachment an idea of being or becoming a sort of greatly 'expanded self'. As you've said before, this is an identification with 'me' as 'awareness', isn't it? Many spiritual teachings speak of the merits of awareness. But until the 'self' that considers its self to 'be awareness' is seen right through, there remains the thought 'I am awareness'. But can a thought ever know liberation?

Best wishes,

Jon.

[Lalita]

yes this is clear that only in direct looking "I" can see there is no "I"

This has to do with 'Choice' and the 'Chooser'. Place both your hands on a table in front of you. In a moment one hand must be raised in the air but not the other. See if it is possible to find the exact 'choice-point, where one hand was chosen but not the other. This may involve waiting for a while but sooner or later one hand must be 'chosen' over the other. Do you find a chooser? What do you notice?

so what I noticed is it seems that my body or something chose which hand to rise. and immediately the mind jumped in and said, I chose this hand. it seemed that a hand was chosen but i don't know who the chooser is, definitely not I. Is it just divine flow? Can I see that just with looking too? or is there a divine chooser?

T

hat is because you are expecting something like - 'feeling that I'm everything' - to happen. This is a subtle attachment an idea of being or becoming a sort of greatly 'expanded self'. As you've said before, this is an identification with 'me' as 'awareness', isn't it? Many spiritual teachings speak of the merits of awareness. But until the 'self' that considers its self to 'be awareness' is seen right through, there remains the thought 'I am awareness'. But can a thought ever know liberation?

Yes you hit exactly the point. I'm waiting to be an expanded self. or waiting for the sense of I to fall away. No thought can know liberation like no knife can cut itself.
I noticed the thought of wanting to be special. there is a dislike of not being different then anybody else. and there is also an expectation to be a special enlightened No Self. Totally funny.
bubbles Of thoughts coming up about all is just thoughts and there is no self. so no thought is true?

[Lalita]

Hi,
I have to share one more today. There is no I. And all other things I wrote are all just my resistance of the truth. It is Iike an addiction of holding on to what I knew to be true for so long. Waiting for the big bang of enlightenment. Questioning the truth instead of the lie. I see that all is just a thought even I am awareness.
You know I thought I only see it sometimes and then I am the self again. But it's just another thought again. I'm not there... Another thought. It's so easy to get caught in the story again. it was like something hit me to admit it. There is no I, and never was. Nobody ever had a self and it can't be found. There were a lot of thoughts and beliefs that created like an outline for a self but it's nothing there. Still I feel that ghost fighting for existence with more thoughts and sensations in the body. And witnessing happening. No witness. There are tears and laughter. Just happening.
Much love

[JonathanR]

it seemed that a hand was chosen but i don't know who the chooser is, definitely not I. Is it just divine flow? Can I see that just with looking too? or is there a divine chooser?

Very good.
Either way it is rather interesting, isn't it? Flow is a good word isn't it, because it doesn't assume about 'how' 'who' or 'why'? Flow just is, just happens. Maybe choice, decisions, free will are all like this? Appearing to be 'made' or 'taken' by 'a person'?

Yes you hit exactly the point. I'm waiting to be an expanded self. or waiting for the sense of I to fall away. No thought can know liberation like no knife can cut itself.

Yes!

I noticed the thought of wanting to be special. there is a dislike of not being different then anybody else. and there is also an expectation to be a special enlightened No Self. Totally funny.
bubbles Of thoughts coming up about all is just thoughts and there is no self. so no thought is true?

Can thoughts that tie back to a 'self' (that is clearly seen as a tissue of thoughts) be 'true'? Don't get me wrong, for survival purposes thoughts can be useful but each time there is a reference to 'self' there is a false assumption.

Do you feel that you have seen through the illusion of 'self'?

Is there a 'self' here right now?


Best wishes,

Jon.

[Lalita]

Either way it is rather interesting, isn't it? Flow is a good word isn't it, because it doesn't assume about 'how' 'who' or 'why'? Flow just is, just happens. Maybe choice, decisions, free will are all like this? Appearing to be 'made' or 'taken' by 'a person'?

yes they are all like this, just appearing to come from a person.
Can thoughts that tie back to a 'self' (that is clearly seen as a tissue of thoughts) be 'true'? Don't get me wrong, for survival purposes thoughts can be useful but each time there is a reference to 'self' there is a false assumption.

Do you feel that you have seen through the illusion of 'self'?

yes as I wrote you today, I see it that I am not awareness, it is just awareness. and always was.
the thoughts are coming wild to persuade me to jump on the story again. but even thoughts feel like just vibrations in appearing in the body.

Is there a 'self' here right now?

no no no, no self anywhere. just thoughts about having, being a self. and desperate feelings of the self being no self calmed down.

[JonathanR]

In that case Lalita, if you feel ready for them I would like to ask you six questions that we always ask at around this stage? Whatever your answers are we can look at them and anything that arises from them. Then I'd invite the other guides to take a look too. They may or may not have further questions. How does that sound?


Best wishes,

Jon

[Lalita]

Yes please ask me

[JonathanR]

Sorry Lalita,

There have been one or two technical glitches recently and I have just noticed an 'extra' post from you that I did not see there before, the one of Feb 1st, that ended with you saying:

There were a lot of thoughts and beliefs that created like an outline for a self but it's nothing there. Still I feel that ghost fighting for existence with more thoughts and sensations in the body. And witnessing happening. No witness. There are tears and laughter. Just happening.

This post is great and I hope you did not think it was ignored? Looks like 'self' has been seen through and the idea that it was an 'I' that was 'aware'?

Ok, here goes with the first three of the six questions:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.


Love from Jon.

[Lalita]

sorry, I had my response written but during submitting was thrown out of the website. So I will write it again later

[JonathanR]

Hi Lalita,

Ah. Yes. That seems to happen to everyone at some stage. You can guard against this by cutting and pasting into memory or into a different text editor before attempting to preview or submit a post.

Jon