Seeking a Guide

[Desideratum]

How is a thought of noself, not being identified with a story ?

Thought of noself is the story. It is the chapter of the story about there being no self. The desire to "get it." The concepts around it, all story.

NOT having thoughts about no self, or self or whatever would be our default state, that of no self.

Would not thoughts that are an opinion about how enjoyable (or not) or how competent (or not), be thoughts that not only invoke that self, but originate in the story of the Self ?

Yes they would. That is one of the traps of this conversation. I want to have no self ... but there cannot be "I" who wants and no self at the same time.

Who suffers ?

When suffering happens, the "self" is invoked into thought, only it is more than a fleeting thought, it is a deeply held belief. It is a thought that we have had millions of t

[akamad007]

Hi Des,

Can you please answer.

Is there ever a 'self' that is not simply the thought of one'? Since no 'self' can be found, how would the thought 'I' change that?

Love,
Akash

[Desideratum]

Can you please answer.

Is there ever a 'self' that is not simply the thought of one'? Since no 'self' can be found, how would the thought 'I' change that?

when the "I" is apparent, it feels like it is there. Its a thought that triggers a feeling. There is no self other than the thought of one, but I think there's some kind of belief connected with that thought. When I think of "me" it seems like there really is a "me." When I don't think of me, I disappear and there just is what there is. the thought "I" projects the illusion of "I."

[akamad007]

Hi Des,

'Is it 'you' that 'thinks'? Locate the 'thinker'.

Love,
Akash

[Desideratum]

'Is it 'you' that 'thinks'? Locate the 'thinker'.

As I was pondering this question, I asked myself who is thinking the pondering. In other words, I applied the question you asked to this very answer. I noticed that as I was trying to find the answer there was thinkING going on, and thoughts, but NO thinker, UNTIL I looked for one.

[akamad007]

Hi Des,

How do thoughts happen. Is there a 'me' that creates or causes thoughts ? Can thoughts be prevented from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

Does the appearing of the thought I make the self real in any way?

Love,
Akash

[Desideratum]

How do thoughts happen. Is there a 'me' that creates or causes thoughts ?

They pretty much just come of their own accord. Or, they are triggered by other thoughts. "I" can willfully create a thought, but usually there is no me creating them.

Can thoughts be prevented from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

I don't think so. Trying to stop thoughts is merely another thought, trying to stop the thought of 'I' is merely another thought, both would invoke the thought of 'I.'

Does the appearing of the thought I make the self real in any way?

It makes if feel real, but that's it. It doesn't make it actually real.

[akamad007]

Hi Des,

"I" can willfully create a thought, but usually there is no me creating them.

What do you mean by that? Can a thought think?

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Love,
Akash

[Desideratum]

What do you mean by that? Can a thought think?

Thoughts are usually automatic, unless they're not. Some thoughts are intentional. If you asked me to think about something specific I would be able to deliberately do that.

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

I don't have any doubt that the separate self is an illusion. It still feels real when the illusion is triggered, but I know that its just an idea.

[akamad007]

Hi Des,

Thoughts are usually automatic, unless they're not. Some thoughts are intentional. If you asked me to think about something specific I would be able to deliberately do that.

Since there is no 'self' what is this one that 'does deliberate thinking'?

Love,
Akash

[Desideratum]

Since there is no 'self' what is this one that 'does deliberate thinking'?

That is a good question. It is possible to have deliberate action, thoughts, etc. but who is having them...? I don't know. It can evoke the sense of I. If I say to you, Akash, think of a purple car, and you do, something took that action. There always seems to be a subject and an object ... unless there is just the object happening. But deliberate action seems subjective.

I have to think about this one ... I have to experience it some more. Or someone does, lol. I can say that the though just happens, but that violates the integrity of this discussion, since it would just be a theory.

[akamad007]

Hi Des,

Can you choose the next thought?

If I tell you "don't think about blue" a thought about blue appears...can you avoid this?

Can you see how the whole mechanism was an automatic chain of stimulus-response?

Love,

Akash

[Desideratum]

Can you choose the next thought?

I feel like I can choose my next thought. If right now as I write this I say, I choose to think of blue, I think of blue. Or I choose, now, to think of a zebra, I think of a zebra.

If I tell you "don't think about blue" a thought about blue appears...can you avoid this?
Its hard not th think of blue if you suggest it to me, that I see.

Can you see how the whole mechanism was an automatic chain of stimulus-response?

Yes, 99% of my thoughts are either reactions to other thoughts, or just pop into my head out of nowhere. In SOME cases I experience myself "taking" thought about something, like I said above.

[akamad007]

Hi Des,

I feel like I can choose my next thought.

Can you SEE that hypotheses are just stories & that thought is experience (not it's content) ?

Love,
Akash

[Desideratum]

Can you SEE that hypotheses are just stories & that thought is experience (not it's content) ?

Yes. A hypothesis is a story that is true within the internally consistent paradigm of mind in which it exists. But a story, for sure. Taking thought is also an experience, I see it now that you point it out.