Looking to pass through the gateless gate

[TruthSeeker2015]

Jon,

Thank you. I appreciate the clarity you provide.

Best regards!!

Don

[JonathanR]

Don,

You are welcome indeed. Apologies for no post from me yesterday.

Still difficult due to faulty ISP at my end. May be mended on Saturday. I'll keep this brief.

You mentioned 'I am Awareness'.

Is there an 'I' that is 'aware'?

Right now is it possible to say 'I am' any idea, notion, label, or 'thing' that could be named?... That could be identified as something?

[TruthSeeker2015]

Jon,

Thanks for replying.

It's too funny how the 'I' fights to stay alive and find a label. You are correct, there is no 'I'. There is nothing.

Best regards Jon,

Don

[TruthSeeker2015]

Jon,

I hope things are going well for you and your internet connection. I have some new things to share. I have seen the belief that a self exists come up when 'I' am planning something (thoughts). When this happens, 'I' work through the fact that a separate self does not exist and the idea of 'me' doing something is not accurate (just a thought), and that there is not a 'me' to do anything anyway, but this is an area that I can't see past. I have also found that 'I' am much more quiet now and am simply watching what is going on. This is more peaceful than before, but it feels like 'I' am waiting for life to happen and not engaged in it,. 'I' am seeing things as if there is the body/mind mechanism and also a 'watcher'. 'I' sense the duality of this. I have not found a 'watcher' to exist, but have not been able to see/move from two to one.

Thanks,

Don

[JonathanR]

Hi Don,

At last! An new router!

Thanks for your messages. Let's look at these things now.

I have seen the belief that a self exists come up when 'I' am planning something (thoughts).

Good.

When this happens, 'I' work through the fact that a separate self does not exist and the idea of 'me' doing something is not accurate (just a thought), and that there is not a 'me' to do anything anyway,

The second reflection here about 'just a thought' and 'not a me' is fine.
But is there an 'I' that 'works through'? Can a 'self' 'work anything through', or is that an idea provided by thought that says 'I work this through'?

Is it true to say 'I have seen the belief that a self exists comes up'? What if this were phrased differently? For example... 'It is seen that the belief that a self exists comes up'?

'I' am waiting for life to happen and not engaged in it,. 'I' am seeing things as if there is the body/mind mechanism and also a 'watcher'. 'I' sense the duality of this. I have not found a 'watcher' to exist, but have not been able to see/move from two to one.

We will need to look at this closely. For a start, is there an experience of 'body-mind mechanism' or is this actually a concept from thought? Is 'body-mind mechanism' actually found when investigating sensations?

Looking up at the sky, right now, is 'body-mind mechanism' the primary experience or is it more like 'seeing expanse of sky'?

Is it 'body-mind mechanism' that does 'noticing of sky'?

We looked briefly at 'mind' and could not find one. Is 'body' any more 'real' than this? Or is 'body' a thought-label for tactile and kinaesthetic experiences?

Best wishes,

Jon.

[TruthSeeker2015]

Greetings Jon,

Traveling now, so its 'me' that has to work off the phone this time.

Yes, the Body/Mind is just a concept from thought. There is nothing left, everything that represents a 'me' is thought. Things are happening, that is it. There is no 'me' that has to understand, there is no me.

Can you please expound on the perceived, perceived, and perception from our earlier discussion.

Your questions are very helpful in allowing 'me' to see, thank you!!!

Best Regards Jon!!

[JonathanR]

Hello Don,

Yes, the Body/Mind is just a concept from thought. There is nothing left, everything that represents a 'me' is thought. Things are happening, that is it. There is no 'me' that has to understand, there is no me.

Good.

Can you please expound on the perceived, perceived, and perception from our earlier discussion.

Yes. You may want to try this a few times when you will not be disturbed.

Like all the excercises this can be adapted for any of the senses. But in the case of seeing, look at something now, I often suggest fruit but it could be anything, a basketball or a plant...provided it is not distracting (TV, newspapers etc).

If we 'chop up' what is happening when you look at this object there seems to be one that sees, one that is seen and the actual seeing that goes on.

Now, is this what is really happening? A 'perceiver' 'seeing' an 'object'? Conventionally perhaps the answer would be 'yes'.

But could this perceptual situation be pulled apart like discrete bits that have separate reality of their own? Is there any line or separation to be found between 'seer, seeing and seen'?

The walk in a park or nature is a also very good for this.


Best wishes,

Jon

[TruthSeeker2015]

Greetings Jon,

When doing the exercise, I do not see a separation between the seer or the seen, just seeing.

Best Regards,

Don

[JonathanR]

Hello Don,

Some time ago I asked you if you feel that you have seen through the illusion of 'separate self' and you said yes. Is this still your feeling?

I would like to ask you six questions that we always ask people at this stage. Depending how you answer these we will either explore what you have written or I will invite other guides to take a look at your answers. They may ask questions of their own. Do you feel ready for these questions or do you have any remaining doubts?


Best wishes,

Jon.

[TruthSeeker2015]

Jon,

Let's do the questions.

Best regards,

Don

[JonathanR]

Ok Don,

Here are the first three of the six questions. Have a go at answering these and we can take a look at what you have written.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.



Jon.

[TruthSeeker2015]

Greetings Jon,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Self, me, I, mine are simply thoughts, they do not exist in any way, shape, or form except in thought. They are not real and have never existed. They were created from the belief that this body/mind/senses/thoughts were part of a separate entity, a 'me' and were strengthened/encouraged by the society 'we' live in.

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self starts in early childhood when you are told how special or different you are from others. Your hair is brown, mine is blonde, you are tall, they are short, you are smart, they are athletic, you are mad, you are happy, etc. There is a primal drive to be accepted, to be 'ok'. The thoughts that run through your mind and provide commentary on your experience are felt, interpreted to be 'yours'. 'I' need to do this, 'I' like this, 'I' don't like that, you define 'yourself' in such a way that you are 'safe', you will survive. As you go through life you are always comparing yourself to others, striving to do better, own more, make more money, travel more places, know more, one up everyone else, to give yourself a sense of security, but it never comes. You always feel the lack of something, an emptiness that drives you to do/get 'more', and again you are left with the same feeling. You feel separate and afraid. This drives you to create your 'world', a wife, nice house, kids, solid career, nice cars, and ideas on how everything is supposed to work, but it doesn't. Finally, something in your world collapses and everything comes crashing down around you and you feel like you cannot go any lower. The illusion is seen for the first time, you are not who you think you are.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Seeing that there is not a separate self, 'I' felt both sad and free. Sad in the sense that the 'me' that 'I' thought 'I' was did not exist, again another 'walls crumbling down' moment. Free in the sense that 'I' know the truth finally and can stop searching and that the thoughts in 'my' head are simply commentary and no longer 'stick'.

The difference between now and when I started this dialog is that 'I' saw myself as a 'self', a 'doer', in control of the outcome and 'my' actions, part of this body and mind, and that 'my' thoughts were real, something that 'I' could/should act on and taken seriously. Now, 'I see' that 'I'm' not the 'doer' of anything and that the separate sense of 'self' is just a collection of thoughts. Thoughts are viewed simply as commentary of the current experience.

This past week, 'I' have felt like a fawn, just born, with wobbly legs. 'I' feel stripped down to nothing, 'I' can find no 'I', no definition or label of self, only awareness. 'I' have thoughts of concern, "Is this it?, Do 'I' truly 'get' this?, What is this supposed to look like? What now? Where's the sense of 'oneness'?" 'I' realize these are just thoughts. 'I' find 'myself' walking slower, without a 'mission' and much quieter, listening without a lot to say, only commenting on an experience. At times, 'I' have the feeling of 'being' simply awareness, other times 'my' mind is full of thoughts that get viewed as the 'river of commentary' and most times simply flow by. There are times when, 'I' get caught up in a thought, but after a while 'see' it and come back to awareness.

Thank you Jon,

Don

[JonathanR]

Hello Don,

Thank you for those clear answers. For some reason the quote function isn't working so I'll improvise..

You said: . 'There are times when, 'I' get caught up in a thought, but after a while 'see' it and come back to awareness'.

Is it possible for an 'I' to get 'caught up in thought'? If not, why not?
Conversely,.is it possible for an 'I' to 'come back to awareness'?
Did a 'self' 'leave or return'?

Here are the second three questions for you...


4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add? are the next three questions...


Jon.

[TruthSeeker2015]

Greetings Jon,

Is it possible for an 'I' to get 'caught up in thought'? If not, why not?
Conversely,.is it possible for an 'I' to 'come back to awareness'?
Did a 'self' 'leave or return'?

'I' does not exist, it is a thought, so no 'I' cannot get caught up in thought, it is simply the current experience.

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Realizing that 'I' was not the doer, walls crumbled after that.

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Your question above continues to impact 'me'. The 'I' that does not exist struggles with letting this go. 'I' know how dumb that sounds.

Life simply flows, 'I' does not exist and therefor cannot decide, intend, choose, or control events in life. 'I' have two experiences thus far, the first was the moving of my arm from the example you gave earlier and the second was taking my daughter to her play and there was no 'doer' walking, driving, or talking, it simply happened.

6) Anything to add?

What do you recommend for support after this?

'I' can't thank you enough for helping 'me' to see. What 'you' do is truly amazing and impactful to people's lives!! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!

Don

[JonathanR]

Dear Don,

Thank you for those wonderful answers. I will now invite the other guides to take a look at our conversation and they may have further questions.

You ask about support. Fortunately there are some quite active and inspirational Facebook groups available as well as opportunities for further guiding. Let's see how the others respond and I can let you know more details in another post :-)

It may take a little while for the guides to respond but please hang on there.

I' can't thank you enough for helping 'me' to see. What 'you' do is truly amazing and impactful to people's lives!! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!

It's my pleasure Don. Guiding is extremely rewarding and especially working with someone like you.


Jon.