Another guide please

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:40 pm

Also, when you try to answer this question, by looking and paying attention, do you identify a "you", controlling attention?
Not so much, no. There is attention being controlled, focusing, but not sure by whom, or by what.

Will come back to your last question, not so clear on that yet

(that's this one):
Do you see how the "I" in the thoughts means different things depending on the thought and the context (everything else that is going on)? Can you provide a few examples?

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:46 pm

Thanks for looking.

Could you please go back and read your last answer. Reading it, one thing I notice is that there's a lack of clarity; you're experiencing thoughts, and they talk about an "I", which seems to be "you", but you aren't sure.

What's great is that if you pay attention, you can experience things with more clarity. Unlike a ticket to a movie or the theater, it won't even cost you anything.

Basic questions:

1) What percentage - roughly - of the thoughts are related to "I", "my", "me", doing things, wanting things, comparing yourself against others, etc? And how many of the thoughts are impersonal or about other things - as in "wow, that's a blue sky!" or "strange noise"? That is, are your thoughts 50% personal, 80% personal, 10% personal? Please look and form a rough estimate.

Why is that important? As you mentioned
they seem to be a stream of non -sense. Random, completely random at times.
-- so it is like you're locked in a room with a boring madman. Let's see if he's talking about things that don't matter that much (hobbits, sports and the weather) or things that do (you, your future, your appearance, your character, etc).

2) What does the "I" in the thoughts refer to? As you wrote,
However, that idea of thoughts and listening to them, who is doing the listening ..... I'm not sure it is the "I" referred to in the thoughts .... but no closer to giving a definitive answer here - I don't think there is one.
Please try to check the following - please check that "my nose" refers to a particular part of your body. Please verify that even though your nose seems to have changed since you were a kid, you've been calling it "my nose" all this time. At noon, if we ask you to point to "my nose" you'd point to the same spot as you would at 9AM, 9PM, etc. I would guess it has been the same since you figured out "my nose" when you were a kid.

After you do that, let's take a fresh look at this "I" that keeps popping up in the thoughts.

So let's see what the thoughts say this "I" needs to do at the moment of waking.

Take a few moments - a minute or so - when you wake up in the morning to stay in bed and notice what you're thinking before you get out of bed. My guess is that you'll have a bunch of thoughts related to the "I" needing to get out of bed and do things. Or, if you're unemployed and depressed you might have a bunch of thoughts like, "my life sucks and I just want to go back to sleep." If you're caffeine addicted, it might be, "I need to get up and make the coffee."

I don't know what sort of thoughts you'll have in the morning; let's see what the thoughts say about the "I" and what ought to be done upon waking up.

You might need to change your bedtime routine a bit so that when you wake up the next day, you remember to do this exercise before you launch yourself into your day -- eg tie an arm to the bed with a string so that you notice it upon waking.

So let's try to nail it down with a situation that repeats - waking up after sleep - and see what happens in the first few moments of the day.

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:05 pm

wow, there's a lot here, thanks. Will need some time to work my way through this.

this though:
Could you please go back and read your last answer. Reading it, one thing I notice is that there's a lack of clarity
yes, I agree - I don't think it was authentic. More speaking for speaking sake.
That is, are your thoughts 50% personal, 80% personal, 10% personal? Please look and form a rough estimate.
looking at this, like I said, needs a bit of time. Initially I would gauge a high percentage of personal - will confirm, or not, with direct evidence

I will probably break this down into exercises for each day - starting with the above, then moving onto 'let's take a fresh look at this "I" that keeps popping up in the thoughts.'

- will start tomorrow morning with the waking exercise.

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:25 pm

from waking this morning, all the thoughts experienced were about an I needing to do things.

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:09 pm

have you disappeared? this is day 3 without any contact from you?

Again, on waking, thoughts appear to be about 'me', entirely.

Percentage of thoughts per day about an 'I' ...... high, say 80%.
I have noticed, though, when talking to another about them then the thought seems to be focused on them, even after the interaction as think about it/them.

Oh, about no contact, if you would rather I request a new guide please say so, rather than simply going absent. Thanks.

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marka
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Another guide please

Postby marka » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:06 pm

Hi, my last guide, Armstrong, seems to have disappeared.

Not sure it was going anywhere with them - 25 pages worth of exchanges. Please someone step in.
thanks

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JonathanR
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Re: Another guide please

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:56 pm

Hello Marka,

My name is Jonathan (Jon for short). I may be willing to guide you. If you are willing for me to guide you I'll ask you to agree to a few ground rules, similar to those you probably agreed to with Armstrong? I do understand your eagerness to 'get on' but don't be put off if, initially, my questioning seems quite familiar. Just answer honestly and be willing to.look at your experience. Please let me know if you'd like to go ahead?


Warm regards,,

Jon.

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:06 pm

Thanks for looking. I got busy on our holiday so I didn't get back to you promptly. I was so busy that checking my email/replies didn't cross my mind at all for a few days.

Ok, so it is 80% or so thoughts about an "I". Does that seem at all curious to you, that it'd be 80% about "you"?

Can you explain that more - it started with, "...when talking to another about them...", I don't understand to whom you are talking, ahout what, etc. Are you discussing the content of thoughts post-conversation with others?

Also, can you please describe your morning experience of waking up more? I get that there's a bunch of thoughts about an I that needs to do things. Do the thougts involve getting out of bed? Making tea or coffee and breakfast? Or is it more about "solving" big problems like building a perfect career, love life, getting enlightenment, etc? That is, are the thoughts the sort that precede bodily movements like making food, or thoughts related to what it means to be a person who has relationships, projects, etc?

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marka
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Re: Another guide please

Postby marka » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:52 pm

Jon,

thank you, yes I'd love to go ahead.

many thanks,

Mark

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:59 pm

Armstrong,
oh. things seem to have clashed .... I thought you had 'bailed' and requested another guide!

JonathanR volunteered and I am going to give it a go with him.

I hope this is ok?

although, point of note - that's interesting questions just there, my thoughts are often related to what it means to be a person who has relationships, projects, etc.
Maybe that's where I'm getting stuck - any parting advice on that topic?

In the mean time, many thanks for all your input, guidance and patience. Wishing you well in all you do,
Mark

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:49 pm

I don't mind.

Further advice? Nothing springs to mind.

Good luck. I hope things work out well for you.

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JonathanR
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Re: Another guide please

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:16 pm

Ok Mark, that's great.

Here are the formalities. Do please read through them even if you did this before, thank you

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.


If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Please read and agree to the following:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A word about expectations. Please let me know what it is that you hope to see or achieve or get from engaging in this process? No expectation, however insignificant it may seem, is to small to mention, so please let me know.

Now, please tell me what it is that you think 'you' are.


Warm regards,

Jon.

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marka
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Re: Another guide please

Postby marka » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:05 pm

well Jon, I agree to the above for sure.
A word about expectations.
Yes, there is this hope that my perception of reality will be different. It doesn't need be a huge change, just that at the moment I perceive reality structured around this sense of self, take that perception away, realise a true reality, it will be different in some way (otherwise why am I doing this?!)
There, that is expectations.
Now, please tell me what it is that you think 'you' are.
I'm not sure is the ultimate answer. I think I exist somewhere. just not sure where or how.
What is this consciousness that perceives things? I don't know.
I would like some idea what IS there - like, after the gate, 'I' simply don't disappear, there is some means of perceiving reality, right?

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JonathanR
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Re: Another guide please

Postby JonathanR » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:02 pm

Hi Mark,

Thanks for agreeing.


Yes, there is this hope that my perception of reality will be different. It doesn't need be a huge change, just that at the moment I perceive reality structured around this sense of self, take that perception away, realise a true reality, it will be different in some way (otherwise why am I doing this?!)
I understand and this sounds reasonable. Do you see that it is important to remain open to whatever may be seen? There are quite a few things that seeing through the illusion of 'self' is not,. It cannot be known in advance what it will be or feel like.

I'm not sure is the ultimate answer. I think I exist somewhere. just not sure where or how.
What is this consciousness that perceives things? I don't know.
I would like some idea what IS there - like, after the gate, 'I' simply don't disappear, there is some means of perceiving reality, right?
Perception continues, sure. Life continues,
Is this an impression you have from somewhere, that 'I' is supposed to 'disappear'?

Look for 'I'. Is there a place that you closely associate with 'being me'? Like, your thoughts, for example? Or perhaps your body, maybe the space just behind your eyes, or whatever?


By the way Mark, whivh time zone are you in? I am in UK.

Regards,
Jon.

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marka
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Re: Another guide please

Postby marka » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:07 pm

UK time zone, yes.
Look for 'I'. Is there a place that you closely associate with 'being me'? Like, your thoughts, for example?
Most definitely my thoughts. My last guide got me to look at something - what sort of thoughts I have on waking - and I realised they were all about this 'me' that had things to do.
Do you see that it is important to remain open to whatever may be seen?
I see this. I will remain as open as possible and if you sense/see that this is not the case at any time, please tell me straight!
thanks Jon.


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