Requesting guidance

[jonathon]

Do you mean: What is missing in the present moment that needs to change in order for me to feel happy?

Yes. But remember the instructions and hint i gave in previous post.

So....a "happy I" is just a thought, it's not possible in reality?
"I'' can never feel happy because there is no "I"?


Hm. What is happiness, what does it mean to feel happiness?
Happiness is an emotion caused by ideas, ideas that things are good. Good implies a standard of measurement. A standard of measurement implies an ultimate goal. An ultimate goal implies a would-be achiever. Is there a would-be achiever? No. No ultimate goal, no standard of measurement, no good.
To feel happiness one has to accept that one exists, one is achieving a goal, one has standards.

I'm lost....I can't feel happy?

What is missing for me to feel happy...the idea that I am achieving goals...Goals implies a would-be goal achiever...

Hahaha, I don't know...what am I missing, what am I not seeing?

So getting rid of thoughts that I think will make me feel happy, but actually the thoughts don't?

Look for answers to these questions as well:
Can you get rid of thoughts?
Can you start/stop thoughts?
Can you interrupt/resume thoughts in the middle?
Can you decide what thoughts to come and go?
Do you have any authorship or control over thoughts?

No
Yes you can start, no you can't stop a thought because it's already there.
No, it's just a different thought
Somewhat. You can intentionally choose to think about things. But thoughts also come and go on their own.
Some control, if I want to have a thought about lions I can. But I have lots of thoughts that exist outside of my control.

[yuvi]

Is there a would-be achiever? No. No ultimate goal, no standard of measurement, no good.
To feel happiness one has to accept that one exists, one is achieving a goal, one has standards.

Good looking!

Happiness is a state of mind. It cannot be grasped and retained. This applies to all states of mind. The real impediment to seeing reality as is, is to cling to thoughts and its contents (believing in its stories).

From here onwards, I’d like replies to come from DE (direct experience). It means, don’t answer from 'thoughts' but from what is ‘experienced’ in the present moment. This is VERY IMPORTANT and requires utmost honesty, focus and attention. DE encompasses ‘sight, smell, taste, sound, sensations, thoughts’ in the present moment.

Yes you can start, no you can't stop a thought because it's already there.
Somewhat. You can intentionally choose to think about things. But thoughts also come and go on their own. Some control, if I want to have a thought about lions I can.

Not satisfied. Take time, no rush. Don’t ‘think’ for answers. Search in DE.

What is it that thinks the thought?

[jonathon]

Can you start/stop thoughts?

Not sure. When I think about whether I can start/stop thinking, my mind gives me examples of what it would be like if I could, but is this just the mind saying?: "Oh yea you can do it", but I'm not actually doing it.

Can you decide what thoughts to come and go?

Not sure. I just have a thought that I can? It's like my brain says: "Oh here's an EXAMPLE of what being in control of your own thoughts would be like(start thinking about lions), so it must be true".

Do you have any authorship or control over thoughts?

I think there's a possibility that I'm not but my mind tries to convince me that I am.

What is it that thinks the thought?

It's just there. The brains thinks it? Thoughts create more thoughts? Nothings thinks it, it just arises.

[yuvi]

Not sure. When I think about whether I can start/stop thinking, my mind gives me examples of what it would be like if I could, but is this just the mind saying?: "Oh yea you can do it", but I'm not actually doing it.It's just there. The brains thinks it? Thoughts create more thoughts?

These are just thoughts and speculations, that comes from different other thoughts about thoughts. You can’t know reality until you stop writing what you ‘thought’ with closed eyes. Only report what is experienced in DE.

Nothings thinks it, it just arises.

I like this answer. but, this statement contradicts all your above answers on questions about ‘authorship of thoughts’, ‘control over what to think’, ‘ability to start/stop thoughts, etc. The more intently one looks, the better the clarity of answer will be.

I want you to look more closely, with attention and focus. Imagine that your life depends on this process. No answers should come from thinking, as we are exploring ‘thinking’ itself.

When there is a conversation internally, there is a ‘thinker’ that thinks the thoughts. Eg. Thoughts arises – pleasant or painful- and the ‘I’ engages in dialogue with the thoughts. ‘I’’ feels as a separate entity that is encountered with ‘thoughts’ and feels the need to converse with thoughts.

If I say, ‘I’ is also a thought, what happens?

[jonathon]

I thought I was doing it thru direct experience. You said thoughts in the present moment, that's what I wrote.

Nothing happens. I is a thought. There's no I, there's a sense of I, but that sense doesn't point to anything that actually exists.

[yuvi]

I thought I was doing it thru direct experience. You said thoughts in the present moment, that's what I wrote.

Yes. DE includes thoughts, but as arising thoughts only, and not believing its contents.

Consider these 2 explanations:
“In DE, there are sounds heard and a thought that describes the sound, eg. Sound of child crying. Thoughts immediately label the experienced sound as ‘child’ and ‘crying’. There are then other thoughts that seek a different state of mind.”
“I hear a child crying that is perceived by my brain; may be my mind tell me so; what is perception then….. blah blah.”

Understand the difference? Telling what you are thinking (believing in thoughts) is different from telling that there are thoughts about such and such thing in DE. The latter takes immense attention of witnessing every thought that comes and goes. You are thinking about the whole mechanism of thoughts, brain, mind, etc. and therefore come out with questions and speculations. These are just thoughts that are believed.

Nothing happens. I is a thought. There's no I, there's a sense of I, but that sense doesn't point to anything that actually exists.

I do not want answers from knowledge gained from reading ‘self illusion’ or from thinking about ‘self’. Search in DE, drill deep, turn the attention towards the ‘sense of I’ that is felt.

Where is this sense of ‘I' located’?
How is it sensed? Is this sensed through any sense organs?
If I ask you to pinpoint ’Jonathan’, where would it be?
Look toward the ‘thinker’ of thoughts. Where is ‘I’ located?

[jonathon]

Yes. DE includes thoughts, but as arising thoughts only, and not believing its contents.

Consider these 2 explanations:
“In DE, there are sounds heard and a thought that describes the sound, eg. Sound of child crying. Thoughts immediately label the experienced sound as ‘child’ and ‘crying’. There are then other thoughts that seek a different state of mind.”
“I hear a child crying that is perceived by my brain; may be my mind tell me so; what is perception then….. blah blah.”

Understand the difference? Telling what you are thinking (believing in thoughts) is different from telling that there are thoughts about such and such thing in DE. The latter takes immense attention of witnessing every thought that comes and goes. You are thinking about the whole mechanism of thoughts, brain, mind, etc. and therefore come out with questions and speculations. These are just thoughts that are believed.

Hm. Not sure I'm getting it...

So I should tell you what I experience...but not.....what?

I do not want answers from knowledge gained from reading ‘self illusion’ or from thinking about ‘self’. Search in DE, drill deep, turn the attention towards the ‘sense of I’ that is felt.

Where is this sense of ‘I' located’?
How is it sensed? Is this sensed through any sense organs?
If I ask you to pinpoint ’Jonathan’, where would it be?
Look toward the ‘thinker’ of thoughts. Where is ‘I’ located?

Located inside the boundaries of the physical body, but it can change where.
Sensed thru internal sight and talking, feelings
I would have to go with a spot in left brain.
A larger portion of the left brain.

[yuvi]

Located inside the boundaries of the physical body

Lets do a little exercise to understand the 'boundaries' of the body.

Read the instruction first and then close the eyes.

Instruction: After closing eyes, remain a passive witness of all sensations for 10 minutes (observing all thoughts, bodily sensations, sounds, etc. as it rises, abides and fades). Focus on any repetitive sound for 5 minutes. If there is enough attention, there will be first sounds and immediately labelled by thoughts (a raw sound that gets labelled as 'child crying').

Closely observe the sounds, and ignore all the mental labeling (thoughts suggesting the nature, origin, intensity, location, etc., of the sound) associated with it.

Now open your eyes.

• Is this sound perceived to be coming from a distant place? From somewhere outside?
• Is there an “inside” where this sound enters for it to be heard? Like pouring water into a vessel, is there a ‘point’ where you are present, and this sound enters from outside?
• Does variation in intensity of sound suggests that it comes from ‘far’ or ‘near’?
• ‘’Hearing’ is nothing but an experience of sounds (heard). If so, what is it that ‘hears’ the heard (or objects)?

A larger portion of the left brain.

Do you experience 'brain' in DE? If so, with what senses?

[jonathon]

Lets do a little exercise to understand the 'boundaries' of the body.

Read the instruction first and then close the eyes.

Instruction: After closing eyes, remain a passive witness of all sensations for 10 minutes (observing all thoughts, bodily sensations, sounds, etc. as it rises, abides and fades). Focus on any repetitive sound for 5 minutes. If there is enough attention, there will be first sounds and immediately labelled by thoughts (a raw sound that gets labelled as 'child crying').

Closely observe the sounds, and ignore all the mental labeling (thoughts suggesting the nature, origin, intensity, location, etc., of the sound) associated with it.

Now open your eyes.

• Is this sound perceived to be coming from a distant place? From somewhere outside?
• Is there an “inside” where this sound enters for it to be heard? Like pouring water into a vessel, is there a ‘point’ where you are present, and this sound enters from outside?
• Does variation in intensity of sound suggests that it comes from ‘far’ or ‘near’?
• ‘’Hearing’ is nothing but an experience of sounds (heard). If so, what is it that ‘hears’ the heard (or objects)

I used finger clicking close to my ear then further away, three clicks close, three clicks away.
1. It sort of is outside, but it also seems to be in me/my awareness
2. No.
3. Yes.
4. Not sure how to interpret question.

Do you experience 'brain' in DE? If so, with what senses?

It was a thought-image and internal talk.

[yuvi]

I used finger clicking close to my ear then further away, three clicks close, three clicks away.

Repeat the same exercise, but do not use finger or any part of body, as it can be distracting. Sit in slightly noisier environment, or keep an ticking clock nearby and focus intently.
Focus as long as it is necessary, and answer the below revised questions.

1. It sort of is outside, but it also seems to be in me/my awareness

What says it comes from outside? Is that sensed with sense organs, or suggested by ‘thoughts’?

2. No.

This contradicts first reply: “its sort of is outside”. Focus more and be certain about the answer

3. Yes.

What suggests how distant the source of the sound is? Is that sensed with sense organs, or suggested by ‘thoughts’?

4. Not sure how to interpret question.

Look for ‘what’ hears the sound. Is there a ‘hearer’ that hears the sound?

Do you experience 'brain' in DE? If so, with what senses?

It was a thought-image and internal talk.

This is the right way of looking. No more speculations or telling thoughts (could be my brain, my mind perceives so, etc) :)

[jonathon]

What says it comes from outside? Is that sensed with sense organs, or suggested by ‘thoughts’?

Thoughts. The thoughts says: "The sound is over there, that is outside of your physical body/you".

This contradicts first reply: “its sort of is outside”. Focus more and be certain about the answer

It's like the sound manifests in a field of awareness. That's why it seems like it's occuring within me - I associated my awareness with me.

What suggests how distant the source of the sound is? Is that sensed with sense organs, or suggested by ‘thoughts’?

Sense organ. It sounds different depending on the location.

Look for ‘what’ hears the sound. Is there a ‘hearer’ that hears the sound?

My attention/awareness hears the sound. But my ears hear it independant of that. So it's more like the ears then brain hear the sound. My attention/awareness is for listening to that sound.

[yuvi]

Thoughts. The thoughts says: "The sound is over there, that is outside of your physical body/you

Can we say, in DE (without thinking or believing in thoughts, but seeing thoughts as just thoughts), there is no ‘outside’ or 'inside' in the experience of sound (or its source)?

Sense organ. It sounds different depending on the location.

A low intensity sound and high intensity sound are both 'sounds.' The more one focuses, the raw the experience of sound becomes. The former and latter are labelled as ‘near’ and ‘far’ by thoughts. Look closely for these mental labels, without getting lost in thoughts. Is there 'near’ and ‘far’ sounds in DE?

My attention/awareness hears the sound.

Where is ‘my’ located? Can this reference point in awareness (or ‘my’ attention/awareness) be located? If so, where will it be?

[jonathon]

Thoughts. The thoughts says: "The sound is over there, that is outside of your physical body/you

Can we say, in DE (without thinking or believing in thoughts, but seeing thoughts as just thoughts), there is no ‘outside’ or 'inside' in the experience of sound (or its source)?

Sense organ. It sounds different depending on the location.

A low intensity sound and high intensity sound are both 'sounds.' The more one focuses, the raw the experience of sound becomes. The former and latter are labelled as ‘near’ and ‘far’ by thoughts. Look closely for these mental labels, without getting lost in thoughts. Is there 'near’ and ‘far’ sounds in DE?

My attention/awareness hears the sound.

Where is ‘my’ located? Can this reference point in awareness (or ‘my’ attention/awareness) be located? If so, where will it be?

Yes.

Yes. I can locate the origin of the sounds. The sounds themselves though have no location.

It presents itself as a mental image of being inside the skull, behind the eyes, inside of the ears.

[yuvi]

inside the skull, behind the eyes, inside of the ears.

Without mental labels, can ‘skull’, ‘eyes’ and ‘inside of ears’ be directly experienced?
Without "thinking about" any of these, is there anything other than 'sounds' and 'sensations' with closed eyes?

Try this experiment:

Close the eyes and remain a passive witness of all sensations for 10 minutes (observing all thoughts, bodily sensations, sounds, etc. as it rises and fades). Now open your eyes.

1. What changes when eyes are opened?
2. Try to visualize a 400 pound bright red tomato lying on the floor in front of you. Following that, try to replace
the tomato with a ‘burning candle’. What happens?

[jonathon]

inside the skull, behind the eyes, inside of the ears.

Without mental labels, can ‘skull’, ‘eyes’ and ‘inside of ears’ be directly experienced?
Without "thinking about" any of these, is there anything other than 'sounds' and 'sensations' with closed eyes?

Feel/see it. A mirror could be used.
Just mental formations.

Try this experiment:

Close the eyes and remain a passive witness of all sensations for 10 minutes (observing all thoughts, bodily sensations, sounds, etc. as it rises and fades). Now open your eyes.

1. What changes when eyes are opened?
2. Try to visualize a 400 pound bright red tomato lying on the floor in front of you. Following that, try to replace
the tomato with a ‘burning candle’. What happens?

1. I start to get visual images and my sense of self becomes more solidified- I am here(behind my eyes). My field of awareness changes, greater sense of in/outside of me.
2. The mental image of the tomato remains.