Tired of the person

[Nati]

Hi dear Vince,

(quoting function is getting on top of me today. just can't set it right.)

your haiku corresponded so with something i had jotted down a couple of hours earlier:
The time is coming when a single carrot freshly perceived will trigger a revolution.
Supposedly by Paul Cezanne.

The thing with thoughts is, that although there content is always concept, we react to them.

Very helpful what you wrote about the beliefs i have about my sister and my sister's beliefs about me. Yes, it is different now, as i am dropping these beliefs. I have no idea if there was any "treating the other injustly" on either side. But i can notice an ongoing disharmony. And i can let that be. No resistance there. Just checked again inwardly. It is so. There is peace after all. I feel very moved by that. Thank you so much. Wonder-full!

What is the difference between knowing and believing ?....[\quote]

Seems there is only a gradual difference. In our culture we say we know, when the probability of a belief seems to be very high. (Feeling some resistance to thinking about this. A fuzzyness.) Anyway, from where i find myself now, i would only use the word "Knowing" for that what i cannot express in words. When there is an opening, a SEEING, then knowing seems to happen. Just knowing without an object.

Does not knowing, leave you in awe of what comes into your perception ? Does it open up possibilities as yet not seen ? even the crap is amazing....[\quote]
That reminds me of something I saw in last winter. Not far from where i live there is a huge wide space, a parking lot, but often quite empty. I like to walk across it because i can see more of the sky there. At that time, it had snowed a few days earlier but they had cleared the place of snow for the cars. Now everywhere there were these heaps of greyish snow mixed with grit and dirt. We don't associate beauty with that, do we? On that day the temperatures were above zero, so the snow was melting. I can't remember why i did this, but i stopped and stooped and looked very closely at one of these melting snow heaps. And what i saw was sheer beauty. It was as if i looked at a miniature world. The dripping, the giving in of structures, the small stones being exposed, the forming of rivers. Also the sounds of the melting process. it brought tears to my eyes and love to my heart. I loved this heap of snow and dirt. Stayed there for a long time.

Everything belongs.

Oh, good.

love, Renate

[Nati]

Feel like coming back for more "work".

Of course, we would be overwhelmed if we had to consider every assumption before we did anything. This leads us to behave as if certain beliefs are correct. Is it these beliefs that we call knowledge ?

Don't know why, but i chose this quote for inspiration. Feel drawn to look at the work issue. (Everything belongs...)There must be some hidden beliefs there. Let's look.

1. You should not leave an ok job, before you know what exactly you want to do with the freedom you will have.
2. You should be able to go on working in this job and still feel free.
3. Once you left, you might regret it after some time.
4. You won't be able to get another job (easy and well-paid) like this. (Strongly believed.)
5. You must leave this job to demonstrate your trust and freedom.
6. This job is not suited for you, it has nothing to do with your potential.
7. This work is so easy and is still exhausting. Can't be right for you.
8. You should find work that you love doing.
9. I cannot earn money with work i love doing.

What i notice, when i look at this list:

i changed into "i" pespective with the last one ( 9)
There are many "shoulds".(1,2,8)
Some are about future worries. (3,4)
2 and 5 are exact opposites.
6 and 7 have to do with the kind of work i do

Number nine seems to be at the root. It sticks out, because of the "i" perspective and its more general outlook.
I see before me a firm triangel with 9 at the top and 2 and 5 as the base line. Seems to be a crucial point.
Some thoughts came up about freedom. Could be freedom in regard to time. But there is also financial freedom.
What i love doing workwise: being with language, translating, looking at texts, improving texts, partly creating text.
Not yet cooked. Will let that simmer for a while.

[Nati]

Hi Vince,

i loved the regularity of your postings these last days and now i miss it.
I see how this triggers old conditioning, familiar feeling of being abandoned and thoughts that i have done something wrong. Can immediately identify this as a story. Will see what i can do with EFT. Or maybe just holding it without wanting it to go away. Taking it as it comes. There is growing willingness to be with unpleasant feelings. Observing with interest.

Have started translating Lisa's interview. I love doing it, but as you warned me, it somehow interferes, rises expectations and invites comparing thoughts. But i don't feel overwhelmed.

Feel very drawn to Rupert Spira's talks these days. Wonder if i should go to London for a day meeting end of January. Not with any expectation that something should happen there. But i love his ways, his gentleness. Seems to be the only chance for me to meet him this year. Love London as well.

All these beliefs about my work situation seem to have lost strength. What an effort i have made to analyze. Still - it is good that i have looked at this stuff. The urge to come to a decision has disappeared, at least for today.
...
wrote the above yesterday
this morning still no reply from you
hope everything is ok with you
another story..

love
Renate

[vinceschubert]

G'day Renate. i just lost a post as the internet conncetion is patchy. (i am on the high seas at the moment)
Will do another and post (probably tomorrow)

vince

[Nati]

G'day Vince,

good to hear from you. These last days without you were a kind of test for me and i have done quite well. No crash.(just a bit(e) of jealousy now - high seas!)
I've started walking on my own. Great. Still i miss your guidance to direct me where to look next.

At night this happened. I listened to the surf of the sea, not the deep thundering but the fine sounds of the small waves reaching the sandy beach. Then i realized it was not the sea at all but the sounds of the duvet on my ear. And i remembered what you had shared about a similar experience. And for a short moment i had a glimpse. Maybe everything is like that - an interpretation of ... whatever ....as this world. Can't grasp it now. But i had this glimpse.

Concerning work it was seen clearly: it is exhausting as long as there is resistance.
Still, i wish i could commit all of my time to this investigation.
Ha, will keep on investigating at work.

love
Renate

[vinceschubert]

G'day Renate. When i (occasionally) lose what i have written in a post, i don't even try to remember what i had said. i just start again with a story that this is an opportunity do it 'better' (whatever that is)
So here goes...

These last days without you were a kind of test for me and i have done quite well.

Great. Good things happen from accidents.

But i had this glimpse.

A la the haiku. A glimpse is all it takes. Oh wait. The haiku got lost. i forget how it went now, so here's a new one with the same message.. (a slight twist on Cezanne)
A glimpse is enough
to start an evolution.
There's no end to this.

Still, i wish i could commit all of my time to this investigation.
Ha, will keep on investigating at work.

Yes, a lot of what happens is unconscious. Set the question and forget it. (the answer is in the question.)

Ok, when i get to your last post, the gist of what i wrote returns. ..and that is;
The intensity of the detail that you go into is unnecessary. It reminds me of those people that feel so uncomfortable with silence that they compulsively talk.
Many may not talk compulsively but fill the silence with mental talk. It appears that they are silent but their thoughts are conversational. That is they are talking to someone in an imagined conversation.
Why does talking (or thinking) ease their discomfort ? (rhetorical question) It is because these thoughts (or words) reinforce their Self story.
Investigate if this is how it is for you ?

Feel very drawn to Rupert Spira's talks these days.

Rupert is on my 'ok' list. Ideally, his words (and presence) will mean more to you after you 'gate', but if you feel a pull, then go for it.

The urge to come to a decision has disappeared, at least for today.

Did this urge happen to someone ? Where did it go to when it disappeared ?

Ha, will keep on investigating at work.

Consider intention. What is it ? Is control involved ?
Oh, this reminds me. Please answer every question i ask. Everything that ends with a ?

Good feelings about this.

love

vince

[Nati]

G'day Vince,

so good to read you again and have your questions to work on.
I love your Haiku.

these thoughts (or words) reinforce their Self story.
Investigate if this is how it is for you ?

i reread this longish description you are probably referring to, before posting it. Felt an uneasiness but sent it anyway without clearly seeing why. Your question exposed: it was a special story about ME. There was an attitude involved that said: Look, that's ME. Look, how special i am.
Yes, I see that those inner and outer special conversations keep on producing a story of a self, maybe a more and more refined self, but still. And it makes no big difference if i tell the story just inwardly or to someone else. It also shows up in the way i am writing, at times trying to be witty or funny, trying to impress.

Rupert is on my 'ok' list.

Oh, good.

Did this urge happen to someone ? Where did it go to when it disappeared ?

An urge was felt. By whom or what i don't know. Maybe the urge consisted of the amount and intensity of thoughts revolving around this topic. Then there was a relaxation, as resistance was first seen and then dropped. And less thoughts appeared. No urge felt any longer. And with the dropping of resistance, time spent at work was experienced as real life time, not "stale and stolen" time.

Consider intention. What is it ? Is control involved ?

Looking at this work example. There was not really an intention. There was this moment it was seen that it was resistance that made it so difficult and exhausting. And resisting seized with this realization. A willingness appeared to see things differently, even a curiosity: How is work without resistance? How is work if i look at it as life. If i am present there. There was no act of control, it just happened.
More generally speaking i would say that as i feel it now, intention is not caused by will but feels more like following an impulse or an energy. Like saying, oh, it is flowing this way, let's follow and see where it leads. There is no control involved, more like an openness to what comes up. Maybe intention is not the right word for this, maybe we don't need this word any more?

Please answer every question i ask. Everything that ends with a ?

Yes. Thanks for reminding me.

love

Renate

[vinceschubert]

Oh Renate, moved (to tears of joy) with this response from you. Beautiful.
It seems that you SEE the immediacy of THIS, as life-ing.
You are no longer seeing the label, but rather what it points to. (work is life-ing)
Of course, there is still much conditioning to evaporate, but now you have the tools to enable this. We won't leave you alone to do this, as there will be much that is new to consider. (and of course we can continue to work here for as long as you feel necessary)
Let's go through these questions (again) to see if there is any identification remaining (at the moment)
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

vince

[Nati]

G'day dear Vince,

what a surprise, i did not expect that. Did not realize something had changed here.
Feel very moved by your reaction.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

How could i have believed in a separate self? How can anybody? Seems so obvious that it is impossible. Of course there isn't anything like this and never was.

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

I'm not sure that i get what is asked here, because the illusion of separate self does not arise any longer.
But the feeling of being seperate can arise as it is still residing as habit or conditioning in the body/mind. This seems to happen when certain thoughts are believed. Thoughts that lead to resisting the present moment. Resistance and feeling separation come together. When they are seen for what they are, they disappear. (Actually, i am in a situation of resistance right now, feeling empty and tired. Not sure if it works the way i described it...
.... later.... ok it seems to have worked fine: There was a sudden experience of strong pain bubbling up. Letting it happen. Ok now. )

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The predominant feelings are relief and wonder and joy. Relief because the heaviness of a seemingly very difficult and not so happy life has fallen off and is continuing to do so. And this is accompanied by thoughts like "Can it be true?" Answered by: "Yes, it is true." Life is happening a lot more spontaneously, just following inclinations and being relaxed about the outcome. Things get done anyway, planning is happening where necessary. "I should..." was often in my mind before, but doesn't appear any more. Attention is much more in the present moment. No anxieties felt around people, feel relaxed and confident.
Identification as person with miserable life and psychological problems disappered. Still quite a lot of thinking going on, but accompanied mostly by wonder and joy. Feelings of uneasiness are accepted as part of it all. Sometimes it feels the same like before. And thought comes: "Nothing has changed." Is identified as foolish thought.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There is no experience of having been pushed over. Nor a definite moment of shift. It was more like an ongoing process of dropping of beliefs and widening the range of what could be seen. Touching different areas one after another. But looking back i see that surely a shift has taken place.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The image of a leaf (that has the ability to think) in a mountain stream comes to mind. It is approaching a rock. Can it decide whether it passes it on the left or on the right side? No. It might think about it, but that would not change its course. It just has to follow the waters that are carrying it. Maybe it gets trapped in whirl before it passes the rock, thinking "i cannot decide which way to go". Another illusion. It will go the way it goes. It has no choice.
It is clearly seen that all these concepts are illusory. And the attraction they once had is gone. Examples from experience: woke up very early today and instead of turning round and sleep more got up. Just happened this way. Later cycling nd my bike seemed to take me wherever it wanted. New ways were discovered. Concerning this process here: It is clear that it was not a question of choice or free will that brought me to this website. It all just happened on its own. Life has made it so. If I had choice or free will, i would have come here earlier. That could not have happened, obviously.
I have given up feeling responsible for my life. Or for anybody else's life. Let life do its thing. Intention is felt as: "Maybe the energy is going that way, we will see..." Just now i think i will probably go out to see a movie later. It is just an idea in mind, that could be given up easily.

6) Anything to add?

Gratefully noticed that sense of achievement "I have done it"," I have got it at last" and so on is no longer around. Instead it is seen that i have not done a thing. It just so happened. A completely natural process.

Seems somehow in appropriate to thank you, Vince, but much gratitude and wonder is felt here, for you, for life...

love
Renate

[vinceschubert]

Morning Renate. Great response (more tears of joy here).
i need to get 3 others to confirm that you have passed through the gateless gate, then you will be invited to join a Facebook group where 'gatecrashers' support each other.
If other guides have any uncertainty or need clarification, i will be back with their questions.
If they are happy, i will see you on 'the other side'.
Don't for a moment think that this is the end of anything. Now the 'work' really starts. A continuing, effortless recognizing (and dropping) of years of conditioning.
There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in those groups, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.(when confirmation occurs)
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert

and a small doc worth reading here; http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf

love

vince

[Nati]

G'day Vince,

looking for words to express gratitude and wonder. But words seem inappropiate.
Tears of joy shed here as well. Wonder-Full feeling of disbelief. Laughter.
Silence.

I read the "awakend" text and feel prepared for whatever might come. It is quite clear that this is a beginning.
Good to have support and stay around others in the same situation.

At night this thought about Vince popped up and made me laugh: "So he has another nut cracked."
(Had some walnuts before going to bed.)

Is there a possibility to make a donation to support this website?

See you there...

love
Renate

[vinceschubert]

looking for words to express gratitude and wonder. But words seem inappropiate.

Yes, it is beyond words, but i know the feeling.

Good to have support and stay around others in the same situation.

Yes, not only good but (maybe) necessary. Some have been known to revert to an (apparent) sleep state when going it alone. Of course, what is SEEn can't be unseen, but it can be buried.

Is there a possibility to make a donation to support this website?

Probably not, but you can message Ilona who pays for the website. (http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/u ... t&p=124674)
The best way that you can 'pay it forward' is to guide yourself, once you have settled in to some of the groups and feel ok about it. (there is training and mentoring for that)
i guide because it helps me to 'deepen', by staying focussed and by visiting 'aspects' that others bring to the table that are in-fact, my 'issues'.
Thank you for that opportunity.

love, love

vince

[Nati]

G'day dear Vince,

oh wow, there was quite a post gate crash happening here. This thing obviously did not want to wait till later. Difficult 24 hours. (Sent in a private message to you, because it is/was so deeply connected with shame and guilt.) Bubble burst as i was starting to write to you just now. Very painful but so much better than the resisting before. Release of pain was accompanied by feeling of being carried. Brings more tears of gratitude now. No need to know what exactly this is about. Just associations with childhood/disappointing my parents/dishonesty/feelings of shame and guilt and separation.
...
Some thoughts about pain and how it is dealt with in our culture arise. It has to be avoided at all costs. And the cost is suffering. Seems i am beginning to have a completely different outlook on pain here. Beginning to see how i was taught to avoid it (don't cry, don't be sad!) and then made this attitude my own. And now there emerges this other way to look at it quite clearly.
Not even in this way, as it was before, learned in therapy environment: Go through the pain and then it will vanish.
Now it is more like: Embrace and welcome the pain because it is life itself. Just like joy.

Feel like i have received another wonder-full gift.

Thank you for being available for some post-gate work.
Will get used to facebook stuff alongside.

love!

Renate

[Nati]

G'day dear Vince,

just a short note to keep you informed...

things seem to be going just fine here. Getting into the habit of laughing away unhelpful thoughts.

Also getting used to FB activities or maybe not? But it is good that there are people out there.

love
Renate