Requesting a guide

[Freddi]

Hi Gints!

Thanks for your detailed replies :-)

And then it came. I looked at "me" and suddenly saw that if I am looking at "me" then me cannot be me, then "me" must be simply some process and awareness is seeing it. I looked throw window on the street. It was seeing and hearing happening nothing more. Later I went to the gym. And yes "me" came again and I looked at him and he disappeared. Then he came again together with fear that he will stay, but I looked at them and they disappeared.

Thanks for sharing this, do I sense some shift happening there?

And I love that you clearly see this:

What I really can observe is thoughts and action, but I can't observe connection between them because there is no connection at all. Then looks like thoughts are powerless. Then who is ruling the game? Looks like some deep desires, preferences and thoughts are running afterwards and commenting.

Now on to a few questions. As always, note them, take them away and stay with them for a while, let them infuse and do their work, while always responding from your actual experience, no logical deduction.

Now I really know that "i" is simply master player in some game. Actually he isn't master player at all, but he pretend to be. In fact, he is small, tiny crumb in the ocean of awareness.

Is this thought speculation or is this a verifiable fact? Can this ‘master player’ be seen, touched, felt? Why assume that it is there at all? As Krishnamurti would say, question, question, question all assumptions, don’t leave any stone unturned. You are the only authority!

I have done all this job and I can see this process, but nothing have changed.

This brings us neatly to the question of expectations, and to your very first post, where you said ‘This is funny you can understand this, but it doesn't change much. You still want transformation you still long for God-self’.
Let’s unpack it all. Stop and LOOK. Notice all the alive happening of this moment, how this ever-changing NOW moves, dances, vibrates. It is a permanent miracle, a constant celebration.
What do you expect will happen when clear seeing happens?
How will life change? What is God self?
What if I told you that there is no self, small or large, full stop. What comes up? Be as detailed as you like.

I have the same strong, profound feeling of Myself. It is so strong and quick. As I am looking now I can feel myself even better than ever before. This feeling of myself is so clear and strong.

Could you describe, in your own words, away from any spiritual jargon, what this ‘feeling of Myself’ is like?
What physical qualities does it have?
How do these physical qualities get interpreted as ‘myself’?
What makes these manifestations ‘you’?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[Gints]

Hi Fred!

do I sense some shift happening there?

Yes, there was some shift. For the first time, I saw "me". I can't see it before because I was "me". But now I see this well known feeling and thoughts running around it, sustaining it.

Is this thought speculation or is this a verifiable fact? Can this ‘master player’ be seen, touched, felt? Why assume that it is there at all? As Krishnamurti would say, question, question, question all assumptions, don’t leave any stone unturned. You are the only authority!

NO, no, no of course it is speculation. I simply wanted to write something like this. And you are right no need for such an assumption in this conversation.

What do you expect will happen when clear seeing happens?

For years, I am wanting to get rid of "myself". It was my the only true desire. I felt so uncomfortable with him. I felt as in narrow dark room. However, I understood that it is "me" who is wanting to get rid of "me". I understood that "me" wants to be something else, better, smarter, more joyful, freer and I understood that it is impossible, impossible to get rid of "me" throw wanting to get rid. So I simply carry on digging in that direction. To answer your question, my expectations were clear seeing, not suffering because of unpleasant emotions, joy, love, peace, being together with the world around me, acting spontaneously.

How will life change? What is God self?

I want to flow together with life that's it. God self is simply abortive terminology for our purposes. I think we can forget about it.

What if I told you that there is no self, small or large, full stop. What comes up? Be as detailed as you like.

I know that it is not there, not around the corner not anywhere, It is nonexistent and allways was. The only thing, with which I am dealing now, is the well-known feeling of myself and fear that myself will come back again. I am checking it every 10 minutes. Looking like ok here is feeling of me some thoughts about me, some fear and that is not me. When I am not focusing on it "me" is not there. I tend to cling in sounds and what is happening around me. If I focus on sound it takes me with it, I have some pleasant feeling in me from hearing.

Could you describe, in your own words, away from any spiritual jargon, what this ‘feeling of Myself’ is like?

It is in my chest, feeling as something is touching it. Then thought is repeating me, me, me. I can't tell you what makes these manifestations me. I have no idea. Intuitively seems that it happened somewhere in my childhood. When I am focusing on it some foggy images from then are coming up. I know that then I didn't like this realisation. I didn't like this new me. It was unpleasant to know that I have me.

[Gints]

What makes these manifestations ‘you’?

Thanks, Fred! It is absolutely incredible question. No one can answer this and from my point seems that this one question is enough to make all people see what is going on, but..... looks like it is not so :) Of course, one can say that the matter of addiction makes manifestations you, but then conclusion must follow that me is made because of addiction and then of course it can not be substantial.

[Freddi]

Hi Gints

1)

To answer your question, my expectations were clear seeing, not suffering because of unpleasant emotions, joy, love, peace, being together with the world around me, acting spontaneously.

You write « my expectations were ». Has that changed? Have you got any expectation now?
Would it be ok if Life continued just the same as it always has, with its good days and bad days, its highs and lows, its light and darkness? Whatever a thought may claim to wish, Life will continue to be a mixed bag.
Can it all be welcome as WHAT IS?

2)

For the first time, I saw "me". I can't see it before because I was "me". But now I see this well known feeling and thoughts running around it, sustaining it

Take a good look. which feels true or truer: there is a 'me’ that sees ‘me’, or ‘seeing of me’ is happening?

3)

The only thing, with which I am dealing now, is the well-known feeling of myself and fear that myself will come back again

What is that ‘myself’ that could come back? Is it real? Is it a thought? Why the fear?
Seeing that the ‘I’ is not real does not mean that the habitual thinking pattern that carries this ‘I’ never comes back. It will, at least for a while, a bit like an engine that is turned off but continues running for a while. What if that Gints-thought did come back, from time to time, especially in times of stress? Would that be ok?

4)

Then thought is repeating me, me, me. I can't tell you what makes these manifestations me. I have no idea.

Are you talking about a general sense of aliveness around what we label the body?
What if I told you that the same sense of aliveness was present here, would that make it ‘you’ or ‘me’?

5)

Of course, one can say that the matter of addiction makes manifestations you, but then conclusion must follow that me is made because of addiction and then of course it can not be substantial.

Are you saying that the connection between the feeling in the chest and the label ‘me’ is only a matter of habit, or conditioning? Does it have any reality, in your actual experience? Take a good look and let me know what you see.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[Gints]

Hi Fred!

Have you got any expectation now?

My main expectation is that the old conditioning of me as something substantial will never ever came back again. I don't know why I am so nervous about it. Maybe I have some thought which tells that "me" is so strong that one morning he can be back in his place again. I can feel some kind of fighting with him. Although I keep looking and see, that it is thoughts fighting. Thought of wanting to be free from "me" and thought telling that it is practically impossible and definitely not for me. After all this journey was so long.

Would it be ok if Life continued just the same as it always has, with its good days and bad days, its highs and lows, its light and darkness?

I know and I am not against it. I don't expect any miracles or super powers. I expect to see the absence of "me" forever. I expect to feel the joy of living no matter what is happening around.

which feels true or truer: there is a 'me’ that sees ‘me’, or ‘seeing of me’ is happening?

Seeing of me is happening. Me cannot see me. Me can only think about me. Thinking about thinking.

What is that ‘myself’ that could come back? Is it real? Is it a thought? Why the fear?

No, it isn't real. Every time I am noticing it I am looking, looking, looking while I see.

What if that Gints-thought did come back, from time to time, especially in times of stress? Would that be ok?

Yes, I can deal with it and accept that this is what takes place.

Are you talking about a general sense of aliveness around what we label the body?
What if I told you that the same sense of aliveness was present here, would that make it ‘you’ or ‘me’?

Thought is making "you" and "me". 'Me" is always past. Thought is running afterward and labeling.

Are you saying that the connection between the feeling in the chest and the label ‘me’ is only a matter of habit or conditioning? Does it have any reality, in your actual experience?

Yes, it is conditioning. When feeling is together with label then "me" is here, but when I am looking at it label disappears, but feeling stays and it is not "me" anymore it is only feeling.

[Gints]

What if that Gints-thought did come back, from time to time, especially in times of stress? Would that be ok?

I had some idea that once I have seen "me" illusion it will disappear and never come back. Now I can see, that at least in my case, this conditioning doesn't disappear in 1 second. Good news is I can see it.

[Freddi]

Hello again Gints,

I had some idea that once I have seen "me" illusion it will disappear and never come back. Now I can see, that at least in my case, this conditioning doesn't disappear in 1 second. Good news is I can see it.

The keyword you use here is ‘idea’. That is all it is. The illusion remains, but when you have seen it, you KNOW it is only an illusion, it arises (to no one), gets questioned, then it goes. Of course conditioning does not disappear in one second, it took longer than that to build up, didn’t it?
So, now that you can see it, and I agree that is very good news, could you explain to me how this illusion of the separate self works, as if I had never heard about it?

I expect to see the absence of "me" forever. I expect to feel the joy of living no matter what is happening around.

I’m afraid that is not on offer here … no miracle, no fireworks, just THIS, as it is. And THIS may or may not include the return of this idea about ‘me’, coming back, staying for a while, then being seen through.
Have a look at the list of expectations that we have compiled, here at LU, and let me know your reactions to it, whatever these are:
http://liberationunleashed.com/faq/
and click on ‘Liberation Unleashed is not …’

Warm wishes

Fred

[Freddi]

By the way, Gints,

Seeing through the illusion is not an end, it is the beginning of an exploration, an investigation. There is much residual, habitual thinking to see through. That is why we have a couple of post-gate support groups for those who have seen through the illusion, where they can share experiences, ask questions, even start further exploration threads with guides.

Fred

[Gints]

Hi Fred again!

So, now that you can see it, and I agree that is very good news, could you explain to me how this illusion of the separate self works, as if I had never heard about it?

One can experience body and the world throw senses, sensations and feelings. We feel with body. All feelings live in a body as sensations. So far so good:). When thought thinks about experienced bodies and things around the body, it assumes "me" and "notme". It is a movement and division. It is thoughts nature. Thought is division and movement from one to another. Thought cannot exist in one. Then thought takes body sensations and feelings and labels as "me" or "mine". Everything else labels as "notme" and "notmine".
I don't know did I get correctly what are you asking...

Seeing through the illusion is not an end

Definitely not. I can see it more clearly than ever before. It is really a beginning.

[Gints]

Actually this is very difficult subject at least for me.

One can experience body and the world throw senses, sensations and feelings. We feel with body.

I am not sure even about this. looks like we can experience sensations and feelings, but not body and the world... It is thought to tell us what we have experienced. There are no objects in our direct experience. Thought creates objects, labelling "me" not "me". So for thought "me" is as much object as trees, tables and dogs. Objects as entities, one, one, one and thought is running between them combining them and growing in its complexity.
My be I will rethink it soon:)

[Freddi]

Thanks for these replies, Gints. Did you look at the list of expectations? Did anything come up?
Fred

[Gints]

Hi Fred!
Yes, I looked at them. I can't find anything.

[Freddi]

Hello Gints

I am not sure even about this. looks like we can experience sensations and feelings, but not body and the world... It is thought to tell us what we have experienced. There are no objects in our direct experience. Thought creates objects, labelling "me" not "me". So for thought "me" is as much object as trees, tables and dogs. Objects as entities, one, one, one and thought is running between them combining them and growing in its complexity.

That’s a great observation of your actual experience, no ‘body’, no ‘world’, no ‘object’, just one ever-changing experience, one movement, divided by thought. Thanks for sharing this :-)

One can experience body and the world throw senses, sensations and feelings. We feel with body

Is there a ‘you’ inside that experiences the body and the world, outside, or is there just experiencing of the body and the world?
Is the body experiencing or is it experienced?
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

When thought thinks about experienced bodies and things around the body, it assumes "me" and "notme"

I can see what you mean, but just to be 100% clear: Can a thought think? Can a thought assume anything? Or are these more thoughts about thoughts thinking, assuming etc?

Warm wishes

Fred

[Gints]

Hi Fried!
I am glad that you like it.

Is there a ‘you’ inside that experiences the body and the world, outside, or is there just experiencing of the body and the world?

Actually I can see both. I can experience body and the world and I can experience body and the world and thought running from "me" to "nome", dividing. When I am in silence and just looking then there is only the world, then I see thought comes and creates "me" and "seen world", creates distance between.

Is the body experiencing or is it experienced?

If we talk about seeing then there can be only present tense all other tenses are thought creations. It means the body is experiencing. Not that it only means, I can see it.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

Definitely!

I can see what you mean, but just to be 100% clear: Can a thought think? Can a thought assume anything? Or are these more thoughts about thoughts thinking, assuming etc?

Yes, I see it is always the problem with language because they are the best friends with the thought sustaining each other. There are only thoughts and more thoughts coming and going.

[Freddi]

Hi again Gints

Fred:Is the body experiencing or is it experienced?
Gints: If we talk about seeing then there can be only present tense all other tenses are thought creations. It means the body is experiencing. Not that it only means, I can see it.

Language misunderstanding here: ‘the body is experienced’ is not a past tense, it is the passive form, as in ‘the body is being experienced’.
Could you look again at the question and take a good look in your actual, first-hand experience?
Is the body DOING the experiencing or is the body BEING experienced?

Actually I can see both. I can experience body and the world and I can experience body and the world and thought running from "me" to "nome", dividing. When I am in silence and just looking then there is only the world, then I see thought comes and creates "me" and "seen world", creates distance between.

Can you see both in your direct experience? Or is one vision happening in experience, while the other one is dictated by thought?
Who or what can experience the body and the world? Can you see/hear/touch/feel the 'experiencer'?
When you are NOT sitting in silence, does the separation between ‘me’ and ‘the world’ return, in actuality?

Warm wishes,

Fred