Another guide please

[Armstrong]

OK.

I'm a bit concerned that perhaps we've strayed from the narrow task that I'm supposed to help you with.

What is it that you still think that you "do"?

Eg did "you" decide that you still need to keep looking for something? Is that what you think you are now? The one that runs this search? Is there a you that is somehow going to "pay more attention" and "figure things out" and thereby "get something"?

Is there more to you than that? Do you think your thoughts? Is there a you that feels your feelings?

I'm asking you to try to be clear about what is going on right now.

[marka]

I think I still do the search, yes. Although as I think about that it sounds stupid.

and thereby "get something"?

but that is very real, yes .... I believe there will be an outcome of some description.

Is there more to you than that? Do you think your thoughts? Is there a you that feels your feelings?

I notice I seem to get stuck in thoughts at times, like believe them to be my reality, with a me that they refer to.
The feelings (this is where the latest phase of this conversation started) ..... I am still unsure about this - there is no 'I' at the centre of the feelings, not that I can find anyway. But they do give a strong illusion of an I, one that I often believe.

That is as clear as I can be. Ask more questions.

[Armstrong]

I believe there will be an outcome of some description.

Can you please explain what you mean by that? I don't understand. This sounds like this is in the category of expectations.

I notice I seem to get stuck in thoughts at times, like believe them to be my reality, with a me that they refer to.
The feelings (this is where the latest phase of this conversation started) ..... I am still unsure about this - there is no 'I' at the centre of the feelings, not that I can find anyway. But they do give a strong illusion of an I, one that I often believe.

Are you sure that's the case? How do you know that?

[marka]

This sounds like this is in the category of expectations.

Well, I'm doing this for 'something', some change, difference. Otherwise, if it was all going ot be exactly the same with no difference, no change, what would be the point?
If that is in the category of expectations, then it is.

Then I said (paraphrasing) I notice I seem to get stuck in thoughts at times ...... The feelings

and you respond with:

Are you sure that's the case? How do you know that?

Initially - are you talking about the thoughts or the feelings? Or both?
With the feelings, its as I have previously stated ...... that I haven't been able to locate the source of the feeling so can't really say for sure if there is an 'I' there or not.
All I can say is that I haven't been able to locate an 'I' at present.
Thoughts - well, when I look there it appears as if they are just thoughts. May not even belong to me .... although 'I' believe that they do, or to 'my' story, 'my' life.

[marka]

and .... in relation to expectations .... I expect to be focused much more in the present moment, as opposed to being caught in projections of thought either created or remembered.

Is that unrealistic?
When I realise the truth will I still have long periods of my time when getting lost in thought is the dominant mode of being?

[Armstrong]

I don't know how your mind will work. How could I possibly know? I don't even know if I'm a robot that only thinks it is human because of "implanted" false memories.

The basic thing I'm supposed to do here is to get you to look and see if you are the subject of experience. Are you "upstream" of your thoughts, feelings, intentions, beliefs, etc?

Hence the questions - do you author your thoughts or impulses? Is there a "you" behind your eyes looking out? Do you decide to believe what you'll believe or how you'll you respond. And indeed, do you control your attention - is there a you that can control whether or not it gets lost in a dream about an "I" that lives your life?

So for the last few weeks you've basically said, "ok, I see that I can't find evidence that I'm running the show, but sometimes I forget and feel all sorts of negative feelings, and it shouldn't be that way" - to which I have a few answers:

1) you can't control your attention. Just look now and tell me if you can control your attention. So what - there's nothing to do.

2) I would guess you probably feel a bit more relieved and less miserable than you did, but you don't feel untroubled 100% of the time, so you believe something is quite wrong. I would ask you how you know that is true.

3) It seemed like you might be more mindful in your life if you did some meditation practice, so I gave you instructions.

4) you wanted tips on what to oay attention during your day, so I advised you to check out your experience of driving - seeing, feeling, moving your body - and to see if there's a "you" doing it.

If you're still just unhappy that things don't feel wonderful all the time, the advice I've seen is to "sit with" and fully experience the bad feelings, rather than doing coping behaviors. And to focus on direct experience.

[marka]

Thank you for this summary.

Just look now and tell me if you can control your attention.

It appears that there is some control for brief moments but this may well be illusory. In the main, no there is no control over what you pay attention to.

I would guess you probably feel a bit more relieved and less miserable than you did, but you don't feel untroubled 100% of the time,

yes

so you believe something is quite wrong. I would ask you how you know that is true.

I don't know that is true. It is not really a question I have considered before, not truly considered. It could equally be 'something is quite right' for it to be occurring like that.

It seemed like you might be more mindful in your life if you did some meditation practice, so I gave you instructions.

did not keep this up.
I get it needs to be done in the morning when first wake ....... problem is I tried to get up earlier (already fairly early) and after a few days just snoozed the alarm.

you wanted tips on what to oay attention during your day

thankyou, I still use these.

the advice I've seen is to "sit with" and fully experience the bad feelings, rather than doing coping behaviors. And to focus on direct experience.

OK. I will do this more.

[Armstrong]

OK, I guess I should ask you to look right now and say what you are.

Is there a self that has persisted across time, thinking your thoughts, doing what you do, controlling your attention, etc? Do you believe that you are your body, or that you live behind your eyes?

[marka]

Do you believe that you are your body, or that you live behind your eyes?

I think you nailed it there for me ..... there is a belief that seems to persist.
The ' live behind eyes' , the 'self that has persisted across time' .....

it seems that there is still a small belief that says this is true.
Despite the fact that I have looked and know it not to be true.

OK, I guess I should ask you to look right now and say what you are.

I know I am not a collection of thoughts and memories and beliefs.
I know I am not my body.

But its still like I'm trying to define the self in some way.
Something persists.

[Armstrong]

OK. Thanks for trying again.

I suggest you take a look at what you think you are and try to put it into words.

[marka]

Hmm. Not sure. Will come back to it.

[marka]

I am having difficulty putting it into words - mainly because I am not sure what I am.
Please be patient here, I will try and write something down.

Happy new year.

[Armstrong]

Hapoy New Year!

[marka]

I suggest you take a look at what you think you are and try to put it into words.

dear Armstrong,
I don't know what I think I am is the answer.
That's crazy ... surely I must have some idea?

Hmm. Well, I know there is seeing and I have always assumed that to be me.
Now I'm not sure.

At the same time, I am not sure I am having, truly experiencing, actual direct experience.
Its like I still think that it is all 'me'. But its not.

So, in answer, I don't know what is left to do this experiencing, I don't know what i think I am.

Suggestions? Or not?

[Armstrong]

I don't know what I think I am is the answer.
That's crazy ... surely I must have some idea?

No, that's not crazy.

At the same time, I am not sure I am having, truly experiencing, actual direct experience.
Its like I still think that it is all 'me'. But its not. So, in answer, I don't know what is left to do this experiencing, I don't know what i think I am.

Can you take a look - now - and try to explain this with more detail?