Thread for SD

[Sraddhadharani]

Merry Christmas Hare,

"Is sense experience 'you'? Is aliveness 'self'?".........Sense experience is what is happening all the time. 'Me' is just a thought/idea/ label added on by mind. So is 'self'. Aliveness is.............................................................????

"Is there anything at all in direct experience that corresponds to the following words 'I'/'me'/Sraddhadharani/Bernadette/the self?"................................Just sitting here, sense experience happening-esp smelling (of frankincense resin burning), visual experience, physical experience, sounds happening, hearing of sounds happening, taste sensations. Feel of beating/pulsing. Breathing happening. Just this........Dropping in words I.........me........Sraddhadharani........Bernadette.........All just words/thoughts-experience happening whether words/thoughts there or not.............

"Can you find ANY THOUGHT WHATSOEVER that is real, that has actual existence in the real world?".................................................................No, always just words/thoughts/memories/ ideas etc arising, being added on to what is............Experience happening, aliveness happening whether thinking etc is happening or not.

"If 'I' is only a thought and cannot be sensed directly, does it have ANY actual reality?"..................No, it's just a thought and no thought is real or has actual existence, always just a thought...........even this one..............

Ho ho ho!
S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini!

'Me' is just a thought/idea/ label added on by mind.

Where is mind? Can it be found in actual, direct experience?

Is 'mind' choosing to add thoughts, ideas and labels?

sounds happening, hearing of sounds happening

This appears to be describing two distinct forms of experience. What is the distinction between sounds happening and hearing of sounds happening?

What or who is hearing sounds happening?

Ho ho ho!

Is this Santa arising in your direct experience? ;-)

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

Where is mind? Can it be found in actual, direct experience?

Mind not found, just experience of having thoughts/ideas/memory etc

.

Is 'mind' choosing to add thoughts, ideas and labels?

Not choosing, no. It's just what happens.

What is the distinction between sounds happening and hearing of sounds happening?

Hmmm, clumsy language happened. No distinction in DE, just hearing of sounds happening.

What or who is hearing sounds happening?

Just hearing happening......

Is this Santa arising in your direct experience? ;-)

No, Santa is just a thought/idea. I don't care tho, as have finally mastered the quote function!

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini!

have finally mastered the quote function!

Yeay! :-)

Has the illusion of self been seen through? Are there any doubts?

Please give a full answer to this, no one-word answers please.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hello Hare,

Has the illusion of self been seen through?

Have spent most of the day reading over dialogue so far. It's been a pretty thorough investigation and nowhere has a fixed or separate self been found, just thought/idea/habit. Still, saying yes or no to whether the illusion has been seen through...................no words coming..........

Are there any doubts?

Not in relation to truth of no findable fixed or separate self as shown by this investigation. Some doubt about maintaining clarity and not just falling back into habits of mind, acting/feeling 'as if', without focus of this current daily process/connection.

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi!

It's been a pretty thorough investigation and nowhere has a fixed or separate self been found, just thought/idea/habit.

Nope.

Still, saying yes or no to whether the illusion has been seen through...........

Notice that word 'still.' Like 'but', it indicates the kicking in of interpretation / mental speculation, (usually about future or past). A word of warning: thoughts that say that present, direct experience is somehow 'not enough' or 'not it' (including the story that direct experience needs to be made more stable / continuous / consistent etc) are potentially endless. This is THE central mental story, moving the focus away from what is directly seen into thought and ideas, including - classically - ideas about how things could be better in some projected future.

The big question is, to believe these thoughts? Or not?

........no words coming..........

That's a good sign!

Some doubt about maintaining clarity and not just falling back into habits of mind, acting/feeling 'as if', without focus of this current daily process/connection.

See above.

A word here about 'selfing': the tendency to act as if there really is a self (that can be affronted / need protection etc etc etc). Please don't expect this habit of a lifetime to stop all at once...it may well run and run! What IS reasonable to expect is that the associated thought-stories can be more readily seen through.

OK you seem to be convinced that when you look, there is no separate self to be found.

But what about when you aren't actively looking? Is there somehow a self there after all, but only when the direct looking isn't happening...when normal life is just going on..? Is this possible - that there is a self that somehow 'returns' when you're not looking?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hello Hare,

This is THE central mental story, moving the focus away from what is directly seen into thought and ideas, including - classically - ideas about how things could be better in some projected future.

Whoops, down the rabbit hole again.........

The big question is, to believe these thoughts? Or not?

No, just a thought like every other-not a special, believable, true thought.

OK you seem to be convinced that when you look, there is no separate self to be found.

Yes...........

But what about when you aren't actively looking?.......................................... Is this possible - that there is a self that somehow 'returns' when you're not looking?

No, there is no 'self' that can return when not being looked for. Maybe some mental habits/selfing etc, that's all.

S'dh X.

[Hare]

No, there is no 'self' that can return when not being looked for. Maybe some mental habits/selfing etc, that's all.

"Maybe"...??? Hedging your bets here. Are you saying 'sort of yes, there sort of is a self that somehow reappears when not looked for'?'

Give me clear, definite answers:

1. Are you saying categorically that a separate self is not found when looked for directly?

2. So is there anywhere else a separate self could be found, other than in actual, direct experience, here and now? Where?

No glib, easy answers please. Don't assume you've seen this already. Look in actual experience. Take whatever time is needed.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Good morning Hare,

Are you saying 'sort of yes, there sort of is a self that somehow reappears when not looked for'?'

There is no 'self ' that can return when not being looked for-in fact looking/not looking currently feeling irrelevant, there is just how it is.

"There may be some experience of 'selfing' etc"............this is NOT the same thing (i.e. a separate self) and is probably a projection of thought into the future based on what was said earlier about this 'habit of a lifetime' continuing to run on.

1. Are you saying categorically that a separate self is not found when looked for directly?

A separate self has not been found at any point in this dialogue/investigation. It cannot be found anywhere right now.

So is there anywhere else a separate self could be found, other than in actual, direct experience, here and now? Where?

No, nowhere else...........

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

All good.

Do the following over a few different meals / snacks:

Focus intently on chewing. Experience the sensations in detail; the movement of the jaw and tongue; the texture and taste of the food and so on.

Who's chewing?

x H

[Hare]

PS Also, whenever the occasion arises:

Focus in detail on the sensations of pooing.

Who's pooing?

x

[Sraddhadharani]

Morning Hare,

Who's chewing?

Who's pooing?

Couldn't resist sharing first response to your posts (when I'd stopped laughing!)...........

To the Adams Family theme tune:

There's chewing and there's pooing
But who is doing the doing
Of the pooing and the chewing?
It really isn't 'me'...........

Not exactly Milarepa, but still making me chuckle! Or should I say, chuckling happening......

Who's chewing?

Chewing just happening......mmmmmm........

Who's pooing?

Pooing just happening............aaaahhhhhh..........

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini!

When the illusion of self has been seen through, what's left?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

Everything.........

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi again!

Nice :-)

Ok please proceed with the following questions in your own time (you can send a couple at a time, or however you want to take it.) Please give something more than a one-word answer.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

x H