Requesting nonaparry

[nonaparry]

Hi revenant,

"How does the self inform you about something? Does it leave you a note? Does it signal with flashing lights? Does it whisper into your ear?" So that was the "Aha!" moment, that I can actually only notice thoughts about the "I" but they cannot be sensed.

Excellent!! So if there are only thoughts about an I, but no entity "I", what does that tell you about "I"?

when I'm doing a primarily thinking based activity (basically, when I'm at work), it is easy to get a bit lost in thought from time to time
… getting lost in thought is less permament now and even when it happens, its grip has weakened.

Excellent! There really IS life beyond thought!

Stimuli, thought, action, thought, action, stimuli, thought and so on, all the way down!
... Oh, and there's a sneaky little thought that hops on board about midway (without a valid ticket) and shouts: "Hey, it was MY decision to do all this stuff!" I actually managed to spot it trying to get a free ride on some occasions while I was noticing the unfolding of events.

Hahahahaha!!! YES!! And isn't it good to notice!!?

If the thought comes, then the thought comes. If that results in confusion, then there is confusion.

Yes; and we have no control over which thought comes and which does not.
I look at thoughts as a kind of "mind-weather". Like clouds, they arrive, they pass. You would never argue with a cloud; why argue with a thought?

"It should NOT have been that easy!" — a thought suggested with dissatisfaction. Conversely, there were no feelings of euphoria after sorting out the issues. No, "yeah, I made it!", nothing. Could it be that I am missing that rollercoaster ride, that contraction/release cycle? Maybe there is a conditioning that misses the ceasing of contraction after sorting a perceived problem out? As if things have become "flatter" with less emotional "swinging" around, if that makes sense. It is peaceful but also something seems to be lacking a bit. Could it be the withdrawal symptoms of drama?

Oh yes; believing our stories about what is happening instead of actually noticing the sensations that ARE happening definitely hooks us into the Drama of it all.
Remove the drama, the story, and you get down to the nuts and bolts of what's actually happening. Which is rarely dramatic!

Also, I noticed that something is gone, I cannot find it.
… To be honest, this is all quite disorienting, and there is a thought that constantly rises up: "What now?"

Don't know. And isn't it exciting? It's like opening a new book, as yet unread. Who knows what adventures are in store?

previously I was so sure that this feeling or thought was an integral part of "me", some characteristic that defines me as a person on a very deep level. Could it be that it was the "I" that was causing this feeling of lacking, and now that it's gone (or weakened), that causes some strange feelings/thoughts of sadness?

The "I" cannot be gone or weakened; it's not an entity! NOTHING is gotten rid of or destroyed in this process; you only notice, finally, what was obvious all along: there is not and never was a separate entity "I" in charge of a personal slice of Life.

That state of not being able to connect to others seems to be almost gone. I also don't worry much about what I say; if it might appear stupid or if I am maybe wrong... Of course, the thought comes up sometime, but I don't take it too seriously and just say it anyway. So yes, there is more freedom when interacting with others.

It sounds like you are less identified with the character you thought you were.

I find it hard to shift the focus from thoughts to sensations when there are people around.

Well, that makes a bit of sense. Until you feel completely safe, you might be concerned about letting down your guard. Perhaps you can practice around people you feel completely safe with?

Overall, I think I should continue observing the control thing and look for the "I", because I suspect I haven't fully seen through it that the "I" does not exist. Logically, it is quite clear, but I think the seeing is still lacking.

Where does "I" seem to exist as a separate entity?

One more thing, I noticed that when I'm reading the words of a liberated person, even if just for a few minutes, it becomes quite easy to become more "liberated" after that, if that make sense. But if half a day goes by without reading such words, the state can get lost a bit... Is this normal? It is a bit as if there was a need to keep it alive by reminding myself of it.

States are only States; they are temporary. That's part of the definition of a State. No State is permanent, and Life changes from moment to moment.

I couldn't sleep very well yesterday, probably because of the heat wave we're having, so I was quite tired today, but something was different. There was no identification with the tiredness. It did not cause "mental suffering", it was just an experience or state that was noticed, but that was it. Less alertness, but no thoughts like "this shouldn't be happening", "I should be more alert", "why do I have to wake up so early and come to work", "this is so terrible" etc. Just noticing the lower level of alertness, and that was the end of it. Every state is interesting, and although there's preference for certain states, it's not the end of the world if a non-preferred one is happening.

Wonderful! Life is a smorgasbord of events and emotions, each one interesting in its own way.

Less identification with problems. Actually, I noticed that only thoughts can make a "problem" out of something happening.

YES! In sensation, is there a "problem"? Or do problems only arise in thought?

Surprisingly, also a tendency to be more relaxed about being correct or to do things according to an imaginary "standard". I still told my opinion about things, but didn't really care what happened after that, if those ideas got rejected or approved.

Awesome! Sounds much more relaxed!

Sometimes worrying thoughts came suggesting that a few days ago "I had it", and now "I've lost it". Then another thought came that this is bizarre, "I" cannot have it, no one can "have it", it's just there :)

You can only have or lose a State, and liberation is not a State. Liberation is a fact. There is no separate entity "self", just as there is no Santa, no Batman, no Tooth Fairy. You don't "have" no Santa and then lose it; no Santa is a Fact. So is no self.

I realised that reading the guidings on Ilona's blog is a rather good way to nudge me out of thinking mode and back into observing mode. Especially the questions seemed to be the most useful. Strangely, when reading guide's words, very often I just can't stop nodding and smiling :) Actually, quite often when I'm observing mode I'm just smiling for "no good reason" :)

Excellent! It seems you know, even when you are not completely clear.

Things in general have lost their "edge". Everything seems to be easy. Worrying about the "future" or what might happen to "me", what others could think of "me" have become very very minimal. Realising that it's actually impossible to tell which country I am in, or what day or month or year it is without memories and thoughts about it.

YES! Only thoughts about countries and time create them. Just as thoughts about self create it.

Several time today there was just observing what various body parts are doing... it's rather amusing, bit like watching the movie. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes more obvious. There was a moment when the hand was scratching the head, a noticing of the thought trying to "hijack" the movement of the hand and assert that "it" (the thought) was controlling it. It was not taken seriously :)

A far cry from the tapping exercise!!

Paradoxically, there's also less inclination to write about these findings/experiences...

I'm glad you have managed to report anyway!! Good work!!

love
Nona

[revenant]

Hi Nona

Just giving you an update, I'm in the process of re-reading all our correspondence and doing the exercises again. In one of your earlier posts, you have expressed your concerns about not having been clear enough on the instructions on how to look. I must admit, your instructions were all very clear and detailed; it was me who had selectively "filtered out" (well, ignored) some parts... By re-reading them now, I have discovered lots of new information that somehow evaded me for the first time, most likely due to my resistance.

Now it is happening quite often that when I shift focus to sensation, I realise that things just happen on automatic. It's quite fun to notice how the hands do something complex, like washing the dishes, tieing the shoelaces, doing the cleaning etc. It is quite apparent that these actions are just happening, triggered by some stimuli/thought, then the label gets stamped on them, "Hey look, I've just tied my shoelaces!". And yes, this is happening exactly as you described it earlier, but I just didn't "get" it back then...

I've come to the realisation that looking is actually quite similar to writing music, if not the same thing! Just as with composing, I tend to have thoughts like "this is so hard", "I never will be able to see clearly again", "I've lost the ability" etc, but when I actually start doing it instead of thinking about it how impossible it is (more precisely, when a thought pops up to focus on sensation instead and the thought is judged as a "good idea" so it is acted upon), then it just starts happening effortlessly.

Excellent!! So if there are only thoughts about an I, but no entity "I", what does that tell you about "I"?

Obviously, it tells me that just like many thoughts, the "I" is an illusion. Althought certain situations trigger behaviour patterns that are associated with that "I" (like when talking to my parents, but at least those behaviour patterns are then noticed).

I look at thoughts as a kind of "mind-weather". Like clouds, they arrive, they pass. You would never argue with a cloud; why argue with a thought?

Exactly, I have come to the same conclusion, although sometimes it is happening that I get involved in the "story".

The "I" cannot be gone or weakened; it's not an entity! NOTHING is gotten rid of or destroyed in this process; you only notice, finally, what was obvious all along: there is not and never was a separate entity "I" in charge of a personal slice of Life.

Yes, I'm guessing I should have said that the "sense of I" is now weakened, or the association with an illusory "I".

Where does "I" seem to exist as a separate entity?

It doesn't seem to be more than a thought construct. Yet, I am looking for an experience similar to noticing that everything is happening on automatic, which can be noticed quite easily any time now when the focus is on the sensations. Hmm, re-reading this paragraph strikes as a bit bizarre to write "I am looking for an experience" to see that "I" do not exist...

In sensation, is there a "problem"? Or do problems only arise in thought?

No, when the focus on sensation is happening and if it's sufficiently strong enough so that thoughts are not interrupting all the time, then there are no problems at all. Like when it happened to me while riding the bike today; there were a few moments when there was no separation between "me", the wind, the trees and the animals, it was all one... but then the thought came "hey, this feels like we are all one, how amazing!" and the moment was gone.

Some other random things I have noticed in the last two days. It is much more apparent now when I'm doing an activity in a sort of a compulsive way and it actually feels bad to be so lost in thought and feel that tension... That came as a surprise, because many of my usual activities I'm doing on the computer at home fall into that category. I'm guessing there will be a balance later that I will still be able to accomplish those tasks but without obsessing about them too much to get everything "right" (another thought, suggesting that "everything must be perfect").

We watched some Adyashanti videos the other night and, to my surprise, I did not fall asleep after the first 5 minutes like I always did before... It was very fascinating to watch and I could relate to what he was saying. There must have been some deep resistance to the whole topic previously because I just could never bring myself to concentrate to what he was saying and the sleepiness always came... So that appears to be progress as well.

[nonaparry]

Hi revenant!

Again, good work!!

I must admit, your instructions were all very clear and detailed; it was me who had selectively "filtered out" (well, ignored) some parts... By re-reading them now, I have discovered lots of new information that somehow evaded me for the first time, most likely due to my resistance.

Excellent!

Now it is happening quite often that when I shift focus to sensation, I realise that things just happen on automatic. It's quite fun to notice how the hands do something complex, like washing the dishes, tieing the shoelaces, doing the cleaning etc. It is quite apparent that these actions are just happening, triggered by some stimuli/thought, then the label gets stamped on them, "Hey look, I've just tied my shoelaces!".

Hahaha!! Isn't that fun!!?

I've come to the realisation that looking is actually quite similar to writing music, if not the same thing!

One of the other guides wrote this about LOOKing:
"Have you ever visited a friend, or traveled to somewhere unfamiliar, and you're driving around, looking for the right exit, without a GPS or directions? You keep your eyes open, right? More importantly, you can't rely on your familiar landmarks. So you have to deal with the territory, because you can't rely on a mental map.
This is contrasting to commuting from your work to home. When you jump on the freeway, you're on autopilot. Half an hour later, you realise you're pulling into the parking lot. How did you get there? Were you paying attention to all of the road signs? Most likely, you used your mental map, and relied on that more than actively engage with the territory.
That's the difference between what new seekers think looking is versus what real looking is like.
When you look, you're dealing with the territory, you're not just blindly following a map. Looking is like driving in a new, unfamiliar, landscape, where you can't trust your usual landmarks."

For me, LOOKing is observing with all of the senses. If I ask "is there a unicorn in the room?" you can observe with all the senses to determine whether there is or not, and you rely on your observation. So I ask, "is there a self in the room?" and expect you to rely on your observation.

when I actually start doing it instead of thinking about it how impossible it is (more precisely, when a thought pops up to focus on sensation instead and the thought is judged as a "good idea" so it is acted upon), then it just starts happening effortlessly.

Yes, of course. You are shifting here from Thinking to Observing. Thinking makes things complicated; Observing notices that everything is happening on automatic, effortlessly.

So if there are only thoughts about an I, but no entity "I", what does that tell you about "I"?

Obviously, it tells me that just like many thoughts, the "I" is an illusion.

So what IS "I", then?

sometimes it is happening that I get involved in the "story".

Yes; when we are caught up in Thinking, we can get pulled into a story. But we can shift focus to sensation, and check what is actually happening.

I am looking for an experience similar to noticing that everything is happening on automatic, which can be noticed quite easily any time now when the focus is on the sensations.

Hmmmm. When you discovered that Santa Claus is not a real entity, did you need such an experience to know he doesn't exist? Do you need a reminder that there is no such entity Santa Claus? In ten days time Christmas will be celebrated; do you have any expectation of a jolly fat man sliding down your chimney?
If not, what is different about "self"?

In sensation, is there a "problem"? Or do problems only arise in thought?

No, when the focus on sensation is happening and if it's sufficiently strong enough so that thoughts are not interrupting all the time, then there are no problems at all.

Good to notice!!

Like when it happened to me while riding the bike today; there were a few moments when there was no separation between "me", the wind, the trees and the animals, it was all one...

Do you fail to notice it is all one at other times? Shift out of Thinking into Sensation: are you separate from the wind, the trees, the animals?

Some other random things I have noticed in the last two days. It is much more apparent now when I'm doing an activity in a sort of a compulsive way and it actually feels bad to be so lost in thought and feel that tension... That came as a surprise, because many of my usual activities I'm doing on the computer at home fall into that category. I'm guessing there will be a balance later that I will still be able to accomplish those tasks but without obsessing about them too much to get everything "right" (another thought, suggesting that "everything must be perfect").

Everything is already as perfect as it needs to be. Check it! Have you not been accomplishing those tasks all along?

We watched some Adyashanti videos the other night and, to my surprise, I did not fall asleep after the first 5 minutes like I always did before... It was very fascinating to watch and I could relate to what he was saying. There must have been some deep resistance to the whole topic previously because I just could never bring myself to concentrate to what he was saying and the sleepiness always came.

I genuinely like Adya. He's a lovely guy! His book The End of Your World is excellent, and I highly recommend it.
I remember listening to my teacher Byron Katie after seeing through the illusion of self and suddenly realising she had never been speaking in parables, as I had thought! She was crystal clear about what she saw, but until I saw it also, I didn't have a clue what she was on about!!

love
Nona

[revenant]

Hi Nona

Yes, I found that GPS analogy very good; that describes my own observations pretty accurately when the familiar surroundings seemed to be as if they were "new" when focusing on the sensations.

So what IS "I", then?

I've been doing some further looking exercises in the past few days. The final conclusion is that all thoughts are just appearing out of nowhere in direct experience or are being triggered by some sensory stimuli. Then sometimes another thought appears with the content "I've been just thinking about this or that", but in fact that is just another thought appearing that gets noticed. This "I" thought often attempts to claim ownership of other thoughts that have been just appearing or the actions that have been happening on automatic. Therefore, it is quite easy to see that this "I" thought is nothing more than another conditioned thought (a conditioned belief). I've been able to see/notice this both on the direct experience and on the analytical/logical levels.

Hmmmm. When you discovered that Santa Claus is not a real entity, did you need such an experience to know he doesn't exist? Do you need a reminder that there is no such entity Santa Claus? In ten days time Christmas will be celebrated; do you have any expectation of a jolly fat man sliding down your chimney?
If not, what is different about "self"?

Well, probably because the "realness" of the "I" thought has never been examined previously, it is quite easy to believe it (purely out of conditioning) when it "stamps" itself on all others thoughts and actions. However, I am assuming (no pun intended) that because of this realisation its grip will be progressively weakend from now on, just by the virtue of noticing and not believing it again and again.

Do you fail to notice it is all one at other times? Shift out of Thinking into Sensation: are you separate from the wind, the trees, the animals?

Yes, when I am not lost in thought, it is much easier to notice this. However, as I mentioned above, these conditionings seem to be quite strong, although they have weakened considerably in the last month or so since I have been doing the exercises. But yes, when the focus is on the sensations, this oneness can be noticed.

Everything is already as perfect as it needs to be. Check it! Have you not been accomplishing those tasks all along?

That's true and funnily enough I am still able to complete my tasks at work, work on my music, photos etc and generally just get things done. But there is a sort of newfound lightness to it all... which sometimes almost feels like cheating :) (actually, that's not a "feeling" but a thought (conditioning) saying that "things should be hard", I have noticed that). I have also noticed that I am much more talkative in spontenaous situations with random strangers (shop assistants, tradespeople in the elevator at work, someone waiting in the queue in front of me etc) and I don't care much whether everything I say is correct English or not or what they might think of my accent etc... I used to obsess about these things but not anymore (or very rarely, to be more exact). Most likely because there is no "I" to protect anymore :)

[nonaparry]

Dearest revenant,

You've come a long way!!

The final conclusion is that all thoughts are just appearing out of nowhere in direct experience or are being triggered by some sensory stimuli. Then sometimes another thought appears with the content "I've been just thinking about this or that", but in fact that is just another thought appearing that gets noticed. This "I" thought often attempts to claim ownership of other thoughts that have been just appearing or the actions that have been happening on automatic. Therefore, it is quite easy to see that this "I" thought is nothing more than another conditioned thought (a conditioned belief). I've been able to see/notice this both on the direct experience and on the analytical/logical levels.

Excellent!! VERY good work!!

the "realness" of the "I" thought has never been examined previously, it is quite easy to believe it (purely out of conditioning) when it "stamps" itself on all others thoughts and actions.

Yes; the truth has been right under your nose all along, but overlooked! And it's only thoughts that say that the thought "I" has the powers of an actual entity.

I am assuming (no pun intended) that because of this realisation its grip will be progressively weakend from now on, just by the virtue of noticing and not believing it again and again.

Or by virtue of LOOKing again any time thought claims that "I" is true!

when the focus is on the sensations, this oneness can be noticed.

Good!! So in Direct Experience, in the Uninterpreted Moment, is revenant ever separate? In reality?

Everything is already as perfect as it needs to be. Check it! Have you not been accomplishing those tasks all along?

That's true and funnily enough I am still able to complete my tasks at work, work on my music, photos etc and generally just get things done. But there is a sort of newfound lightness to it all... which sometimes almost feels like cheating :)

Isn't that good to notice?! Work tasks, music, photos all get "done" just as part of the flow of Life!

(actually, that's not a "feeling" but a thought (conditioning) saying that "things should be hard", I have noticed that)

Exactly!! You are doing a great job of seeing the way thought comments on other thoughts! And any time you wish to learn whether the thoughts are correct, you can shift focus to direct experience.

I have also noticed that I am much more talkative in spontenaous situations with random strangers (shop assistants, tradespeople in the elevator at work, someone waiting in the queue in front of me etc) and I don't care much whether everything I say is correct English or not or what they might think of my accent etc... I used to obsess about these things but not anymore (or very rarely, to be more exact). Most likely because there is no "I" to protect anymore :)

It's great that you no longer feel a need to protect an "I" — was there ever an "I" that needed protecting?

Dear revenant, have you seen through the illusion that you are or have a separate "self"? Is there anything we've discussed that is not clear?

love
Nona

[nonaparry]

Dearest revenant,

I'm wondering how it's going?

love,
Nona

[revenant]

Hi nona

I must tell that quite a few days have just went by when I was completely lost in thoughts... So completely lost that I haven't even realised it. That didn't seem to be a problem while the activity that I was doing was predominantly pleasant (in a slightly obsessive way), but later it turned out that when you're lost in thoughts, it is not really possible to differentiate between "good" and "bad" thoughts. Whatever thought comes up, that IS the reality for the moment; it's hard (or impossible) to be selective about them. Which can be problematic when thoughts causing discomfort are rising up. But then, this is only problematic when it gets labelled as "problematic" :) On a deeper level, these "problematic" thoughts causing "discomfort" are actually very useful, because the perceived discomfort can cause the individual to start looking and to be present again. Which is basically what happened to me a few days ago...

So yes, I've been alternating between these two states in the last week or so. In short, I need more time to do some deeper looking to be able to properly answer your questions from your previous message. I have made some progress but I'd like to deepen it a bit more by doing the exercises before I'm giving you an answer.

I am anticipating to get back to you with a proper reply sometime next week. Hope you are well and enjoying the holiday season! :)

Cheers
revenant

[nonaparry]

Hi revenant,

these "problematic" thoughts causing "discomfort" are actually very useful, because the perceived discomfort can cause the individual to start looking and to be present again. Which is basically what happened to me a few days ago...

YES! Good to notice!!

Don't get too caught up in figuring it out; it's easier than that. Just LOOK; observe with the senses. SEE what is actually happening, without the story.

love
Nona

[revenant]

Hi Nona

Just giving some signals of life... The reason I have not posted anything in the last two weeks was because I had nothing to report at all. Sadly, somehow my ability to look seems to be lost. I know that the answer is that it cannot get lost, but still, I just cannot look... I have fallen back into my old patterns, the old obsessive behaviour and I'm trying to look and meditate but it just doesn't "happen". So I will keep trying but I'm irritated and frustrated again, as if the successful looking episode had never happened. It's all just a very distant and vague memory.

It's is particularly irritating because on one side I have the old annoying thoughts suggesting that I have soooo many things to do, but the available time is severely limited, so I always feel the compulsion to do something, but then feel frustrated during most (if not all) activities because I'm always thinking of the next thing I have to do... which takes much of the enjoyment out of everything. So I have these thoughts, which is nothing new, but at the same time I have a memory of the period when the obsessiveness had subsided and therefore things were much more enjoyable. Basically, I did the same things, except for worrying about time and when to do the next thing etc... Still, having this thought doesn't help much, that more relaxed state seems to be inaccessible at the moment.

So I'll keep trying I'm guessing...

revenant

[nonaparry]

Hi revenant,

I have just returned home to London and am giving some consideration to your reply.

It is *very* common to reach an "I had it but lost it" stage, particularly if not surrounded with others who get it. And when we are stressed, we can tend to embrace the habitual rather than step out into new and unexplored possibilities. May I recommend you make sleep a priority for a while to allow the body to destress? And then we can pick it up again.

In the mean time, spend time in Nature. Watch the trees, the clouds, the insects and animals. Are any of these "in control" of their lives? Or is their existence simply part of the flow of Life? What would happen if any of them believed the thoughts that trouble you?

love,
Nona

[revenant]

Hi Nona

Thanks for the suggestions and sorry for not replying to you earlier...

To tell the truth, I haven't been really "suffering" in the last few weeks because I "lost it". The thing is, I just kept myself occupied with other things (e.g. buying a new computer, watching movies, messing around with my music etc). Yes, there was some disappointment first when the ability to be present seemed to fade away day by day, but now I reached a sort of steady state where I feel relatively okay in the old "slightly obsessed okay" way, but actually I don't really mind that either, because excitement and being slightly obsessed about things go hand in hand for me...

So this might sound a bit stupid, but I don't have that big of a motivation at this point to explore this whole liberation thing further. I think that I have already gained a lot from the seeing exercises (e.g. not believing the thoughts etc), but I don't feel any great suffering or discontentedness now that would push me really toward pursuing this further. And on the other hand, I have other interests that really excite me at present and in all honesty I prefer spending my time on those things.

There is also some circular thinking going on: as all we have is the sensory inputs and the thoughts, basically everything that is not in the present moment is just beliefs. So what does it matter if I pursued liberation or not, nobody really cares. I might as well just do what excites me now, like spending time configuring my new computer etc... There is no "prize" or anything for being liberated, so if I don't feel like doing it now, why should I?

I don't think there is much point in doing this half-heartedly, so would it be okay if we stopped this for a while?

Cheers
revenant

[nonaparry]

No worries revenant. No one has to do this. There's no prize and no gold star. Any time you want to pick it up, let me know.

the ability to be present seemed to fade away day by day

Really?? Is there any time at all when you are not present?? If yes, then where are you if not present?
Being present includes immersing yourself in what excites you! Enjoy your new computer!

love
Nona