Yes. That's what it's like, we're bound to forget again and again. After all, 'I' thoughts have been arising thousands of times daily for all those years!I do have to look at experience, or the assumption creep back in.
Bear in mind that you are hearing a report back of people’s experience at a particular point in time. This process does not bring any permanent state of clear perception, broad awareness, freedom or peace. There are no permanent states.I expect some of the recurring things that people report in the dialogues of the Gateless Gatecrashers, clarity of perception, seeing the world without the narrowness of self, a sense of freedom, a sense of peace.
This process isn’t about the breaking of the habit of self. It’s about a seeing/knowing that self is an illusion. That is all. That seeing/knowing can then pave the way for the habit of selfing to gradually fall away. Sometimes habits resting on the illusion fall away suddenly with this process, sometimes gradually; some of those habits may not appear to be budging. What unfolds after the seeing through is an integration of that seeing into all areas of our life.When the habit breaks I expect the point to be known. For there to be something incontrovertible, for there to be a sense that the perspective has shifted irrecoverably. For the world to be experience differently.
Absolutely, the point is a lessening of suffering. But this might not manifest in the way you are expecting. It needs space to unfold. If there is still doubt that 'this is it', and if there's an ongoing blizzard of doubting thoughts which are believed, well, that's itself a source of suffering, and kind of counteracts the seeing.if my personal stream of psycho-physical habits mean this journey feels no different from never having taken it then I'm not sure what the point of this investigation has been.
Ok, this is where expectations are still a block. We still do this stuff. Attachment to self, 'selfing', continues after seeing. Habits are strong. In the Buddhist schema, selfing is only completely eradicated with full awakening. This process is just a beginning. Losing one's temper is not an indicator.But after one major setback, where a loss of temper made it clear I was still attached to a sense of self, I've had no sense that anything has been so clearly seen that it can't be unseen.
Ok. So you wrote:I get stuck at something has been seen through that cannot be unseen.
There isn't a self experiencing. When I look, there's only experience. The label that's creates a sense of self jumps in quickly afterwards.
You lose your temper, and thoughts arise that are based on old programmes. You act in a moment from habit, but afterwards if i asked you again if there is a self, other than 'the label that jumps in quickly afterwards? - would you answer any differently?The self only persists as an imagined story.
imagined story?
Ok, I hear the need to do what keeps you in good shape. It's a fine line, isn't it - staying focused and keeping momentum, but not getting obsessive. I suggest this: stay in dialogue, but try doing it differently. After the exercise above, don't worry about looking. Just do your normal practice. But afterwards, relax and just sit without any agenda. Relax as deeply as possible. If thoughts about the process arise, just label them 'thought, not reality'. See what unfolds and report back briefly - no pressure.I need a break from this as it's causing more stress and confusion. I also need to clean up my practice which has suffered as a result of getting obsessive about LU when it is a grounding in basic practice which keeps me sane.
I was actually feeling pretty miserable after sending you the last reply despite the intense frustration I'd been experiencing around this process. So thanks for being persistent.I would suggest it's not a good time to take a complete break. This area of hopes and expectations is crucial, and I strongly suggest we continue the dialogue at this point.
This para is unnervingly accurate in what has been going on for me. Yes there are expectations, subtle and barely conscious, and if there's one lesson in the length of this process is that the ego's capacity to appropriate is very strong. 'I" want to be better through seeing through the illusion of 'I', more peaceful, more insightful, more loveable, wiser etc... Instead I find that I am much the same or, usually, less than I hoped. And all this thinking just reinforces the 'I' but this is hard to see when I am in it.Absolutely, the point is a lessening of suffering. But this might not manifest in the way you are expecting. It needs space to unfold. If there is still doubt that 'this is it', and if there's an ongoing blizzard of doubting thoughts which are believed, well, that's itself a source of suffering, and kind of counteracts the seeing.
No, I can honestly say I wouldn't, the fact that the habit is strong doesn't create something that isn't there. But this acting out of habit does seem to be tied to strong doubt or maybe it's attachment or else why does this particular stream of thoughts prove so undermining of what I am seeing?You lose your temper, and thoughts arise that are based on old programmes. You act in a moment from habit, but afterwards if i asked you again if there is a self, other than 'the label that jumps in quickly afterwards? - would you answer any differently?
Can you give me a clear example of this?Maybe notice when selfing is happening, and take a moment to look again: Is there a self, other than the imagined story?
I find it VERY hard to do this, to simply relax. So this morning, what I notice is a stillness, a vividness of perception, a broadening of awareness. And then the motor to do starts again.Ok, I hear the need to do what keeps you in good shape. It's a fine line, isn't it - staying focused and keeping momentum, but not getting obsessive. I suggest this: stay in dialogue, but try doing it differently. After the exercise above, don't worry about looking. Just do your normal practice. But afterwards, relax and just sit without any agenda. Relax as deeply as possible. If thoughts about the process arise, just label them 'thought, not reality'. See what unfolds and report back briefly - no pressure.
Yes! Bonkers, isn't it? But great you see it.'I" want to be better through seeing through the illusion of 'I', more peaceful, more insightful, more loveable, wiser etc
AB- solutely!And all this thinking just reinforces the 'I' but this is hard to see when I am in it.
Quite!if i asked you again if there is a self, other than 'the label that jumps in quickly afterwards? - would you answer any differently?
No, I can honestly say I wouldn't, the fact that the habit is strong doesn't create something that isn't there.
Ok! So when the motor to do starts: notice how everything just happens without driving being necessary. Let life unfold, let the fruits of seeing unfold.I find it VERY hard to do this, to simply relax. So this morning, what I notice is a stillness, a vividness of perception, a broadening of awareness. And then the motor to do starts again.
Some telling resistance to this, doubt that it is possible to truly relax and stop driving, fear that the world, my world, will collapse. But also a peace sometimes and a more vivid sense of the present. Which is delightful so the resistance seems weird.Ok! So when the motor to do starts: notice how everything just happens without driving being necessary. Let life unfold, let the fruits of seeing unfold.
Sometimes they'll be relaxation, sometimes there won't. But whenever tension is noticed, relax as much as possible. Any painful thoughts that are believed, label 'thought' or 'thoughts, not reality'. If they're more persistent, again maybe put any words in a frame and see them as shapes.
What unfolds?
:-) Great, yes, this is a quite an adjustment, to trust this. So notice... when relaxation happens... does anything collapse?Some telling resistance to this, doubt that it is possible to truly relax and stop driving, fear that the world, my world, will collapse. But also a peace sometimes and a more vivid sense of the present. Which is delightful so the resistance seems weird.
Pleased to hear it!I can say right now that relaxing in the past day hadn't collapsed anything.
Its a habit, an approach , not a thing. But that really an intellectual comment. At 5.30 in the morning when 'I' have to get up to start fighting back the tide of mess, children fighting, plans awrying, money disappearing, it feels very strongly that there ais a thing, a me, doing this. Any perspective on how to deal with that gratefully received.What could possibly brace itself?
Great, it sounds as if this relaxing and seeing thoughts as not reality are bearing fruit…just remembering to relax and to see, when aware enough, that thoughts especially those that support suffering are just thoughts.
the ordinariness of this cannot be avoided, as I have often used the spiritual to do, but that there were moments of really settling into the present.
Observe actions unfolding… can you actually find a thing, a me, doing anything?At 5.30 in the morning when 'I' have to get up to start fighting back the tide of mess, children fighting, plans awrying, money disappearing, it feels very strongly that there ais a thing, a me, doing this.
What/where is this deluded type? :-)I'm a very deluded type
Ridiculously simple is good! :-)It seems ridiculously simple but just letting go of the habit to control the situation suddenly makes me more aware of the present , aware in a non utilitarian appreciative way.
There is no habit of controlling the situation. The habit is thinking we are controlling the situation. So it is about seeing that there is no 'I' controlling in the first place.letting go of a habit of controlling the situation
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 182 guests
