Another guide please

[Armstrong]

I don't understand this, " Because the point is, the whole essence of 'being human' is that we do not perceive things as individual elements but more of the 'whole thing' together. And it is this 'whole thing' that then provides the sense of a self."

If you look at your experience now, what is your "sense of self" and what is the "whole thing"?

[marka]

now -sense of self is this thing behind my eyes, that which is looking out.
Not sure what it is.
Whole thing ..... no different in this moment

And maybe that is the difficulty - if I experience reality as moment by moment - now - then there is no real sense of a self that is in control, or that things are happening to.

However, what tends to happen is that I experience reality as a mix of thoughts (memories, future projections and various fantasies) as well as a mix of emotions, all coming together as a story of 'me' in a life that 'I' am living.

We have spoke of this before, two or three times now I think.

Also, exercises, I am doing the one you suggested last - checking moment by moment (when I remember!), as I am involved in things, where the self actually is, if there is one to be found.
Each time I have sincerely looked, there is no self to be found.
Although, it is curious but I notice there is some 'resistance' to this at times - like 'I' don't want to focus myself in the present and ask the question and instead want to continue an existence partly made up of awareness of the present moment coupled with moments of being lost in thought and feeling (if that's not a contradiction!)


Also, have been thinking about the conversation regarding anger and the seeming bias I have toward feeling 'good', moving away from any negative emotion (I am paraphrasing, don't remember the exact words, hope you understand what I am referring to).
This is also fascinating because I don't really think I have considered before 'well, why not anger?' or 'why not frustration' ..... they are simply emotions occurring, much like thoughts occur without a 'me' to control/create or direct them.

I'm looking still.

[Armstrong]

now -sense of self is this thing behind my eyes, that which is looking out.

Is there even "looking out" happening? Does seeing require effort or doing? And is there a thing looking out?

Reading your remarks about anger, and the fact that you haven't seen feelings like thoughts or sounds (transitory phenomena that just happen to "you") makes me think you should try going through your day and paying particular attention to your feelings (happy, sad, desire, anger, fear, joy, etc) and whether or not there's a self experiencing them, in the same way you've been paying attention to touch sensations and sight sensations (and "you", the center of it).

[marka]

Is there even "looking out" happening? Does seeing require effort or doing? And is there a thing looking out?

seeing requires no effort, no doing.
Hmm. Now you've stated it I'm not sure that there is even a 'thing' looking out.

I will follow your direction (paying particular attention to your feelings and whether or not there's a self experiencing them) and report back.

[Armstrong]

OK.

[marka]

paying particular attention to your feelings and whether or not there's a self experiencing them

I seem to be quite close to the feelings - attached - as if they are mine, almost like they define me.
I'm not sure what it is that keeps me so close but it is certainly different to vision or audition.
I will keep watching.

[Armstrong]

Interesting.
I suggest you pay close attention to stimuli, thoughts and feelings and see if any of that is you.

[marka]

pay close attention to stimuli, thoughts and feelings

do you mean stimuli which are thoughts and feelings?
or stimuli and thoughts and feelings?

I'm guessing that it is thoughts and feelings and to see if any of that is me?

I would like to continue with exercises designed to help me to detach from feelings, to continue with this theme:

paying particular attention to your feelings (happy, sad, desire, anger, fear, joy, etc) and whether or not there's a self experiencing them, in the same way you've been paying attention to touch sensations and sight sensations (and "you", the center of it).

[Armstrong]

Stimuli lead to thoughts and feelings and potentially actions.
Eg car pulls in front of you (stimuli) and then you think, "he's doing that to frustrate me", your chest tightens (feeling) and then you honk the horn (action). Later on you might remember it, feel frustrated and repeat the story to a friend of how you "had a bad day".

I'm wondering if you can pay attention during that experience and see if there's a "you" in it, a "you" affected by it, etc.

[Armstrong]

I would like to continue with exercises designed to help me to detach from feelings, to continue with this theme:

I'm curious if there is a you that wants or needs detaching from feelings. :-)

If you pay attention to the stimuli and your cogniitive (thinking) and emotional responses, and actions - and whether or not there's a "you" at the center of it, I think that's you getting to the bottom of whether or not there is a permanent separate self.

[marka]

If you pay attention to the stimuli and your cogniitive (thinking) and emotional responses, and actions - and whether or not there's a "you" at the center of it,

ok, so today it felt like I got stuck on the responses and forgot about the stimuli creating them.
More detail - this was me getting really angry (again lol) based on a situation at work and different people at work, trying to 'fix' things. This simply served to wind me up more and create more anger.

The stimuli, then, were the other people and the situation at work.
The emotional response was the anger, the cognitive response was thoughts that continued throughout the day, rerunning, reviewing and changing/fantasising about the situation.
The action was the angry words I used in the situation itself, plus the continuing thought.
I'm still not sure I fully understand this - pay attention to the stimuli and your cogniitive (thinking) and emotional responses, and actions.
Especially in line with this bit - 'and whether or not there's a "you" at the center of it, I think that's you getting to the bottom of whether or not there is a permanent separate self.'
- but will do as suggested, keep looking in terms of stimulus and response.

This other bit:

I'm curious if there is a you that wants or needs detaching from feelings

well, I did have a good old look today, during the day so after the actual events themselves. you know, it was strange. I couldn't find an owner of those feelings but that was potentially because my looking found its limits - there was emotion and I couldn't find the source of it, so how can i answer as to whether there was a self or not? I can't; there may well be at the source of the emotion, something I can't find.
Also, the physical responses going along with the feelings - these were intense at times and although they did not necessarily point to any sort of self, they certainly add to the hold story of it being real and believeable.

[marka]

'hold story' = 'whole story'

[Armstrong]

The thing to notice is if there's a permanent separate self in all this; that's what we're supposed to investigate.

You seem to believe that you ought to not get angry, afraid, etc. due to external circumstances.

I've asked you to see if that belief is true.

I've also asked you to pay close attention to the situations that lead to afflictive emotions, and to try to notice if there's ever a permanent separate self experiencing things.

I would suggest that right now you take a look and see if there's a permanent separate self reading this message. And to tey to notice if anything else exists other than what you experience right now.

[marka]

You seem to believe that you ought to not get angry, afraid, etc. due to external circumstances.

I've asked you to see if that belief is true.

that belief is not true, it doesn't matter. I can get as angry as I want, or not. Potentially it has consequences but it doesn't mean I can't do it.

The thing to notice is if there's a permanent separate self in all this; that's what we're supposed to investigate.

Hmm. That's where it gets stuck because there does seem to be a self experiencing this anger, at the time at least.

I've also asked you to pay close attention to the situations that lead to afflictive emotions, and to try to notice if there's ever a permanent separate self experiencing things.

So I'll just keep doing this until I notice something other.

I would suggest that right now you take a look and see if there's a permanent separate self reading this message. And to tey to notice if anything else exists other than what you experience right now.

First part - no.
Second part - I don't know. But assume (through memory,thoughts, expectation and beliefs) that the rest of the world exists.
And as soon as I get up and go outside, or look out the window, that whole set of thoughts, beliefs etc is confirmed, therefore reinforced as being true (or highly likely to be true, at least.)

[Armstrong]

OK. That's nice looking.

I thought this was interesting:

Hmm. That's where it gets stuck because there does seem to be a self experiencing this anger, at the time at least.

So please take a look and tell me what the self that experiences anger is like.

Also, what's so special about anger? If you take another feeling, like say, joy or happiness (aka "contentment"), Is there a self that experiences it? Is that self the same as the one that experiences anger?