Who wants to guide me?

[Gadget]

Hi Xain,

Sorry that I could not reply to you sooner. It's been a very busy week..

Do this little experiment as many times as is wished, and examine the experience of doing this.
In witnessing the choosing and moving . . .
What can be found that is causing the arm to move?
What can be found that chooses the arm?

Regarding choosing the arm: At first I thought I made a choice myself, because I had the sense that I myself was formulating the words in my mind 'Let's move the right arm". But before that, it seems a vision in my mind of the word "right" or "left" bubbles up from nowhere. There is no way I can investigate beyond that point backwards. Right or left just comes into existence. About formulating the words in my mind "let's move the right arm", when I look closer at that now, it seems the thought about doing so precedes the formulating of the words. There is no one creating those thoughts, they just come into existence. After the choice, it first felt like I could choose not to move that arm, but go for the other. But again, it's a thought that pops up from nowhere, controlled by no one. Followed by new visions of "left"/"right"/"left", just as long as the thought of "let's not move this arm" pops up. Now I'm not sure anymore if this vision precedes the thought, or that they are both thoughts. In any case, there seems to be no one home that's creating them. There is no one choosing the arm.

About what causes the arm to move: No one is causing it. First there is a strong sense that "I" am doing this, sometimes with or without the thought "Now!". But every time it happens for real, the awareness of the arm moving seems to come a split second later. There is no way I can pinpoint beforehand the exact moment the arm will move. Of course, the thought "now!" - when investiged - seems to bubble up from nowhere.

Is there an 'I' in this? A controlling 'I' or a choosing 'I'?
If there isn't such an 'I' to be found, then could 'I' in the statements just be an idea / a thought?

There is no I controlling the choosing or the moving of the arm. There is absolutely no one doing it. I guess you could say it happens by the body-mind mechanism that's in place, but that is a completely impersonal matter. There is still a sense of an "I" responsible for all this, but there simply is no "I" doing it. It strongly feels this sense of "I" is being kept in place by language and conditioning. It feels that that is the reason why it remains so strongly present in my thoughts. But the I is nowhere to be found! "I" is just a very sticky thought, just smoke and mirrors.There is no solid real separate thing.

Funny, I was trying to explain more what I felt with "I", then got frustrated again that I could not get rid of this sense of "I" as I described before. Then the thought popped up: "who is trying to get rid of what?" There is no one trying anything. How is it possible at all for a thought to get rid of another thought or feeling, when it is evident that thoughts are just happening by itself in the first place. Even "trying to get rid of a thought" is just a thought in itself. Now I am thinking "So I'll just observe", but observing just happens as well by itself. Hilarious. It really does not matter what thoughts or feelings are happening, because they are happening to no one. Haha.

I'll let this sink in a bit today :)

Cheers!
Yves

[Xain]

Hi Yves

A little too much analysis there. Try if possible to report from simply what is found, rather than speculation and interpretation.

At first I thought I made a choice myself.

This is speculation. I am not asking about what you think, I am asking what can be found.
Examine the actual act of moving and choosing. What can be found using the senses?

It seems a vision in my mind of the word "right" or "left" bubbles up from nowhere

What is this 'mind' where the words visually appear?
Is this something that is being witnessed? Do these words appear every time the experiment is done?

After the choice, it first felt like I could choose not to move that arm.

And what 'I' is that?
Examine the experience directly and describe the 'I' that could choose not to move the arm.
Detail exactly how the choosing 'I' appears. Is it seen, heard or felt?

There is no one choosing the arm.

No one where exactly? What locations were examined?

Notice that 'the arm moved' is acceptable. It may appear that 'the arm just moved' and what did that is completely unknown. But you are saying there is certainty that 'no one' did it. How are you establishing this fact?

First there is a strong sense that "I" am doing this.

What is this 'strong sense'? Or do you mean a belief? Like, a real idea that there is a controller.

I guess you could say it happens by the body-mind mechanism that's in place.

This is speculation. What was found?
When the experiment was carried out, was a 'body-mind mechanism' found to be doing it?

Even "trying to get rid of a thought" is just a thought in itself.

It is. But don't worry about this at the moment.

It really does not matter what thoughts or feelings are happening, because they are happening to no one.

I take what you write at face value. This is either an idea you have (you've read or been told) or a true belief.
Explain how there is 'no one'?
Who or what discovered that 'no one' was doing things?

Maybe do the experiment again. Just simply and honestly report from what is found.

Xain ♥

[Gadget]

Hi Xain,

Got it. Today I'll be away from home all day, and there's no time now to sit down and quietly do the experiment and answer your questions. I will do it tomorrow.

Yves.

[Gadget]

Hi Xain,

I'll do the experiment again. First I'll try to answer your questions.

What is this 'mind' where the words visually appear?
Is this something that is being witnessed? Do these words appear every time the experiment is done?

The mind is a concept, a thought that other thoughts appear in it. Nothing substantial is to be found. It cannot be witnessed. The words do not appear every time the experiment is done.

It may appear that 'the arm just moved' and what did that is completely unknown. But you are saying there is certainty that 'no one' did it. How are you establishing this fact?

I cannot establish this fact.

What is this 'strong sense' [that "I" am doing this]? Or do you mean a belief? Like, a real idea that there is a controller.

It is just a thought.

When the experiment was carried out, was a 'body-mind mechanism' found to be doing it?

Also just a thought, a belief why things happen the way they happen.

It really does not matter what thoughts or feelings are happening, because they are happening to no one.

They just happen.

Explain how there is 'no one'?
Who or what discovered that 'no one' was doing things?

I cannot explain it. "They are happening to no one" is just a thought.

Maybe do the experiment again. Just simply and honestly report from what is found.

I've done the experiment three times now the past hour, and it feels I am totally stuck. Thoughts appear about which arm to move and when. Then the arm moves. Then another thought claiming the movement to be "mine". Then a new thought appears, or the word (left/right) is seen (thought?), or left/right is heard, and another thought of moving or not moving, choosing the other arm or not, appears. Then the arm moves again. And again the thought of claiming the movement as mine. There is nothing else. Just a sequence of thoughts and movements, just happening by itself, and still the thought that I can control this even though I cannot find any proof of that in the experiment. Extremely frustrating.

Yves

[Xain]

It really does not matter what thoughts or feelings are happening, because they are happening to no one.
They just happen.

Good.
Some of the other guides might not be as picky as I am, but nailing this in an honest fashion may assist you to further realisations along the way at a later date.

Thoughts appear about which arm to move and when. Then the arm moves. Then another thought claiming the movement to be "mine". Then a new thought appears, or the word (left/right) is seen (thought?), or left/right is heard, and another thought of moving or not moving, choosing the other arm or not, appears. Then the arm moves again. And again the thought of claiming the movement as mine. There is nothing else. Just a sequence of thoughts and movements, just happening by itself, and still the thought that I can control this even though I cannot find any proof of that in the experiment. Extremely frustrating.

Let's break this down.

Thoughts appear about which arm to move and when.

When thoughts appear, is there an 'I' to which they appear to?

Then the arm moves.

Is there an 'I' controlling the arm?

Then another thought claiming the movement to be "mine".

Excellent. Again, is this thought being experience by an 'I'?
Is it possible to say 'The thoughts are mine' - 'I am having the thoughts'?
What is experiencing the thoughts?

Extremely frustrating

A feeling of frustration may appear. That is an experience.
Is there an 'I' experiencing the feeling?
Who or what is 'frustrated'?

'I choose the arm'
'I move the arm'
'I experience the arm moving'
'I witness the thoughts appearing'
'I get frustrated'

What is this 'I'? Is there one?
Or is this 'I' just an assumption / An idea / A thought . . .

Is there a 'you' doing any of this???

Xain ♥

[Gadget]

Hi Xain,

Thanks for being picky, and not letting me off the hook :)

When thoughts appear, is there an 'I' to which they appear to?

No, thoughts just appear. They just happen. Other thoughts may happen that claim thoughts to be 'mine', but that is nothing more than a thought in itself. It feels like a turning wheel of thoughts pointing to themselves.

Is there an 'I' controlling the arm?

No. The arm moves. Then the thought arises that claims ownership of the movement for the "I". When I did the experiment, this thought could als precede the moving of the arm. But the result was the same: the arm just moves, no "I" controlling the arm.

Is it possible to say 'The thoughts are mine' - 'I am having the thoughts'?
What is experiencing the thoughts?

Thoughts just happen. Thoughts can point to other thoughts/concepts, such as the "I". Thoughts aren't owned, they are impersonal appearances. Thoughts are experienced by this body.

A feeling of frustration may appear. That is an experience.
Is there an 'I' experiencing the feeling?

This feeling is experienced by this body. To be more precise, a thought of frustration comes into existence, together with a thought of claiming this frustration to be mine. Those thoughts just happen. Then a knot in the stomach is experienced. This bodily sensation just happens. Immediately after a thought that links the knot with the thought of frustration and a thought claiming this sensation as 'mine'. All this together creates the thought "feeling frustrated". There is no "I" experiencing this. Everything just happens by itself, and is experienced by this body.

Who or what is 'frustrated'?

Now I get confused. It seems that frustration just happens by itself as well. I can't say who or what is confused. Not the "I", not the body, not the mind. It is just a thought happening, it seems, creating an avalanche of impersonal other thoughts and bodily sensations. Frustration seems to be just a label. Don't know what to say about this further..

What is this 'I'? Is there one?
Or is this 'I' just an assumption / An idea / A thought . . .

There is no I. I is always a thought; this thought can in itself be a memory/concept/idea/identification with an experience. The assumption that there is an "I" seems to be heavily influenced by social conditioning/language.

Is there a 'you' doing any of this???

My fingers type letters that appear on the screen. Typing and seeing just happen, awareness of it just happens. Thoughts appear and disappear constantly, some claiming (the sensation of) ownership of experiences. Ideas (thoughts) and feelings come up by themselves. Thinking about what "I" will type even seems to happen by itself. Thinking happening. No, it can't be that "I" am doing any of this.

The feeling of frustration is gone for the moment. Confusion has come instead. It does feel as if it is not owned by 'me', however. That is new. It seems to be just confusion, without any story or attachment to it. If that makes any sense.

x Yves.

[Xain]

Thanks for being picky, and not letting me off the hook :)

It's cool.
Just notice there is a subtle but important difference between saying 'there is no-one here' and 'the only one to be found is in an idea or thought'.

This feeling is experienced by this body.

Let's explore this one . . .
Is the body 'you'?
If it is said 'I feel', the 'I' in this phrase is the body?

There is no "I" experiencing this.

Sit for a moment. Close the eyes.
Range over the 'feeling' which is normally associated to be of the body.
Examine it closely.

Is the body doing the feeling? Or is there just 'feeling'?
Are there two parts to the experience - The feeling itself, and the body performing it?

Is there an 'I' feeling? Is there a 'body' feeling? Or is there just 'feeling'?

Now I get confused. It seems that frustration just happens by itself as well. I can't say who or what is confused.

Yes, indeed :-) I understand.

It is just a thought happening, it seems, creating an avalanche of impersonal other thoughts and bodily sensations. Frustration seems to be just a label. Don't know what to say about this further

Nothing needs to be said further. What you just stated was excellent.

The assumption that there is an "I" seems to be heavily influenced by social conditioning/language.

Conventionally, yes.
Conventionally (meaning in every day communication), there is a 'you' being guided by a 'me'. 'I' have asked 'you' to examine things - To look for an 'I' . . .

But . . .
Is there a 'you' being guided? Or is that just another idea / thought / assumption?
Has there EVER been a 'you' being guided?
Is there even a 'you' having these ideas, thoughts and assumptions (other than an idea of one)?

That is new. It seems to be just confusion, without any story or attachment to it. If that makes any sense.

It makes perfect sense.
This might be 'cognitive dissonance', where some new realisation goes directly against what has been assumed and understood to be 'true' all along.

Do you have any specific questions at this point?
Open up.
How do you feel?

Xain ♥

[Gadget]

Is the body 'you'?
If it is said 'I feel', the 'I' in this phrase is the body?

No, the body is real. "You"/"I" is just a thought. The body does not feel. There is just feeling, which is experienced in the body, and perhaps later on claimed by a thought.

Is the body doing the feeling? Or is there just 'feeling'?
Are there two parts to the experience - The feeling itself, and the body performing it?

Feeling just is. The body does not do feeling. Thought happens. Bodily sensations happen. The body experiences, but does not perform. There is only feeling as an experience. Any feeling of the body/I doing the feeling is just another thought that happens by itself.

Is there a 'you' being guided? Or is that just another idea / thought / assumption?
Has there EVER been a 'you' being guided?
Is there even a 'you' having these ideas, thoughts and assumptions (other than an idea of one)?

There is no "me" being guided. There are thoughts, there is typing of letters on a screen on "your" side, just an impersonal happening of thoughts and fingers moving over the keyboard; on my side there is seeing, reading of the message just happening, thoughts happening, bodily sensations happening, other thoughts claiming thoughts or sensations or linking those together and creating the illusion of control by a "me". But it all really just happens, thoughts, impulses, ideas, belief systems. There is no you/me. There never ever has been a you/me. I guess we could say 'guiding happens'. As everything else just happens.

Do you have any specific questions at this point?
Open up.
How do you feel?

There is still some confusion, but no questions attached to it. It is okay, it feels. It also feels that every thought that comes up now is followed up by a "claiming" thought or a "free choice" thought and immediately after a thought that labels the claiming/free choice thought as just a thought and the realization the thought just happened by itself. The constant jitter of thoughts in my head is there, but it is not so interesting at the moment. There is this sense of calm. No story attached to it. Not much else at the moment.

x Yves

[Xain]

At the start, you said:

It is unclear for me if this feeling of "owning thoughts" will ever be totally shaken off, even after passing through the gate.
. . . there is a unmistakable and unshakeable feeling of owning those thoughts.

Is there a separate owner of thoughts here that can be found?
Is it realised that the only owner of thoughts to be found is, itself, a thought - namely 'I'?

The 'I' thought might return . . . might pop up again and again . . . might be 'believed in' . . .
This is often a common expectation by many after 'seeing' - That thoughts stop or the 'I' thought will forever be realised to be 'just a thought' and not relate to a real separate self.

Is there a separate 'you' that could control or stop thoughts?
If the 'I' thought returns and is believed in . . . is it a problem?
Is there a separate self that it could be a problem for?

You seem clear that you have seen through the illusion.
There are a further six questions I can ask as part of this process which may further solidify this realisation for you.
Are you OK to answer them?

Xain ♥

[Gadget]

Is there a separate owner of thoughts here that can be found?
Is it realised that the only owner of thoughts to be found is, itself, a thought - namely 'I'?

No, no separate owner of thoughts can be found. Yes, it is only a thought in itself.

I understand that the "I" thought might return from time to time, that "I" might believe in my own story. These are just thoughts that pop up. It is as you say, "I" don't control those thoughts, I cannot stop them either. It cannot be a problem for me, because there is no me. No separate self that exists. The thoughts about this separate self, however, are real. They just happen, not created, controlled or stopped by "me" or any other thought.

What I wrote in the beginning about that it is unclear if I can shake off this feeling of owning thoughts seems highly irrelevant right now. To be more precise, I find it pretty much impossible to relate now to what I felt at the time. How can "I" shake anything off, if there is no "I" in the first place?

Yes, I would love to answer your six questions. And thank you so much for your pointers, I'm very grateful!

x Yves.

[Xain]

That is a lovely reply Yves.
I am glad that some of the questions / confusion that you appeared to have at the beginning has been 'seen through'.

Here are the first three of the six questions - Have a go at answering them when you have a moment.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥

[Gadget]

Hi Xain,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there exists no such entity. There has never been such an entity. Thoughts about self/me/I exist, those thoughts can take the 'form' of an idea/belief/concept/identification with an experience of the five senses/etc, but those thoughts can at best only point to other thoughts about self/me/I.

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

Well, it feels pretty normal. No big changes.
Difference now is that I don't have the expectations anymore I had in the beginning, about that "I" had to know for sure that I had seen through, and that it was more than just an intellectual understanding. That was a thought that kept 'happening' a lot. This thought now seems ludicrous (also a thought :), something like an illusion that wants to know for sure that it does not exist.
So yes, the doubt is gone. Still some confusion, but already less than yesterday. There is wonder about how totally obvious this all really is, and so easy it was to not see it at the same time. The story of Yves continues, but things seems different in a subtle way. Today I experienced some pain because of something that is happening in my private life. Although this pain was felt quite clearly as a bodily sensation, the pain was observed without much story attached to it nor a lot of thoughts coming up claiming the sensation as "mine". The pain was just there, nothing personal about it. There is no fear that this might be different at times, when "I" will totally lose myself in my story, because even then these are just thoughts happening.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

What pushed me over I think was you asking me what this 'strong sense' was, what 'this mind' was, this 'body-mind mechanism'. Up to that point I had not investigated those sincerely. When I had to conclude that these are in reality just thoughts/concepts in themselves, things seemed to fall in place. The experiment was still frustrating at first, because I was still trying to find 'myself' somewhere in there controlling or acting, but with sense/mind unmasked, the only thing to see in the experiment was an unbroken succession of thoughts and movements happening.

x Yves

[Xain]

Thanks, Yves.

Just out of interest, you say 'Thoughts exist' - What exactly do you mean by this?
Or do you just mean that they appear - They are experienced?

Here are the last three of the six questions:

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Xain ♥

[Gadget]

Hi Xain,

Thoughts are indeed appearing, and are real, as opposed to the self. E.g. the thought of self is real, but points to something illusionary.

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

The self constitutes thoughts about I/mine/me and thoughts that label experiences/memories/feelings as owned by this "I". The illusion of self is the belief system (itself also a thought) that these thoughts point to a separate entity which exists in reality, and which is responsible for thinking, feeling, hearing, seeing etc.
This illusion of self starts as soon as thoughts appear that identify experiences/memories/feelings/bodily sensations as "mine". In my case, there was this 'sense' that there really was an "I" controlling eye movements or getting aware of smells. Thanks to your questioning I found out that this sense was just another thought that identified direct experience as mine.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all concepts we created in our language that support the illusion of self when not investigated. In reality, those concepts all point to thoughts just happening and might or might not (I cannot say,this is a mystery) trigger other thoughts to come up, bodily impulses to happen (moving the arms), sensations/feelings to arise. This can create an ongoing sequence of thoughts, impulses, feelings just happening.
I don't know what makes things happen, I only know it is not me doing it. I could say "things happen by themselves" or "life happens", but these sentences in themselves contain a mystery to me. Seeing/hearing/thinking/feeling/smelling happens, I don't know how it works. Ultimately, since there is no "I", "I" cannot be responsible for anything.
Basically everything that is experienced can be given as an example. I am typing these letters on the screen now: no thought of this being a decision "I" made came up until I wrote it down just now. Now another thought 'gives' me the sense that I decided to write this. I just drank a sip of tea. It just happened, thirst was experienced, the arm moved, there was tasting. The thought just happened that I had free will in doing this. Now there is a thought that connects the "I" to an intention to drink again. It is an illusion that "I" created this intention; in reality the thought (it is nothing more) just happened without any interference of the self. There is a thought now about not taking a sip of tea now because I first want to write this down. The illusion of choice. And on and on and on.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Question no.5 got me wondering about a few things.
- I guess that words like decision, intention, free will, choice and control do serve a purpose in conventional language (making agreements, understanding each other)? I know that in my story I will keep using them and probably sometimes even believe in the validity of them (even though I know the self is an illusion and those words are intrinsically linked to the self). I find it confusing now to relate to these words/concepts. How do you 'treat' words like these? Is it just labeling happening?

- When I wrote that "I' ultimately cannot be responsible for anything, the following thought came to me: the thought of responsibility (in behavior, actions, etc) happens by itself, causing an avalanche of thoughts, impulses, feelings that in general make for responsible behavior. Another thought: what a relief, responsible behavior happens anyway, without "me" doing it. I wonder (and it came up earlier in our conversation as well) what the influence of social conditioning is on everything that happens? Can you say anything about that? I think I read somewhere that after seeing through the illusion the unraveling of belief systems/social conditioning happens (as always) by itself. Is that it?

"I" see with some amusement that in Yves' story, he is still used to writing long replies. That did not change either :)

x Yves

[Xain]

That was a lovely reply, Yves.
Thank you for taking the time and trouble to write such an expansive response.

I find it confusing now to relate to these words/concepts. How do you 'treat' words like these? Is it just labeling happening?

No change of language is needed. There is always a temptation to consider a different way of speaking but none is needed.
Indeed, with someone like yourself who has been looking into this area a lot and who has 'recently realised', whenever 'I' or 'me' comes up, it may be met with a little tingle of confusion or bewilderment.
Conventionally (in normal language and understanding) we can still communicate and talk as normal.
The difference would be that these language conventions of 'I', 'me' are seen through. They are seen as 'just elements of language' and don't relate to anything like a real separate person like they used to do.
Nothing needs altering. It is simply 'realised to be what it is'.

I wonder (and it came up earlier in our conversation as well) what the influence of social conditioning is on everything that happens? Can you say anything about that? I think I read somewhere that after seeing through the illusion the unraveling of belief systems/social conditioning happens (as always) by itself. Is that it?

These are further things to explore and there is much to be said and explained around these areas.
Yes, it is typical that once this is seen (no separate self) then other areas are also examined and can be deconstructed in a similar fashion.

I will pass our conversation over to other guides to examine, and will get back to you shortly.

Xain ♥