OKness

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

I took more time with this one and tried several activities. Walking is just walking, do dishes just doing dishes, etc.. Nothing added.

I appreciate you taking time to examine a range of activities, and also your succinct but definite response.

Same, brushing teeth, washing up, typing, yoga, running. The more strenuous the activity the more difficult it is for me.

Just to be clear, when you say the more strenuous activities are more 'difficult' what do you mean? Is it that it's more difficult to actually look clearly in direct experience to see whether there's any separate self involved? Did you manage to see clearly that there was no self present even when tasks were strenuous or complex?

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Yes, automatic.

That's excellent; your answers are brief but are also clear and unambiguous. So far (and subject to your reply to my question above), you haven't been able to find a separate self present or involved in doing anything. Choosing and deciding seamlessly overlap with acting and controlling, so let's take a look at those. Please have a go at the following exercise:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Also, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

Really good work with all of this Todd.

Pete x

[Tigger]

Just to be clear, when you say the more strenuous activities are more 'difficult' what do you mean? Is it that it's more difficult to actually look clearly in direct experience to see whether there's any separate self involved? Did you manage to see clearly that there was no self present even when tasks were strenuous or complex?

Yes, I can experience directly no self in more strenuous activities or the zone and that's when everything is effortless of course. Usually when I ski, mountain bike or climb I go hard. Mistakes are costly. I am suggesting it might take a little practice to realize no " self" when the consequences are so high and the sympathetic nervous system fully engage.

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

It was easier to experience the "the self comes after the event itself" in raising my arm. That was very clear. The "chooser" was more difficult. It felt a slightly more solid but on examination it was clearly not. The feeling was like a thick thought being added to the activity.

Enjoyed the video clip demonstrating precognitive intelligence and then integrating of conscious cooperation.

I do find myself looking at this phenomena deeply but it seems like a waste of time. Already is.

Thanks,
tw

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

Yes, I can experience directly no self in more strenuous activities or the zone and that's when everything is effortless of course. Usually when I ski, mountain bike or climb I go hard. Mistakes are costly. I am suggesting it might take a little practice to realize no " self" when the consequences are so high and the sympathetic nervous system fully engage.

Thanks for clarifying that. There's one thing I want to be sure about. As you know, this process is simply about looking in direct experience to see whether a separate self can be found anywhere. Once it's seen and therefore known for sure that no such entity can be found, and thoughts arising saying different are seen for what they are and are therefore not believed, then that's it, job done. A possible danger is that 'no-self' can be reified, i.e. become an apparent entity, that is believed in its own right in substitution for the belief in a separate self, effectively returning the process to square one. I'm not suggesting that this is happening to you, but your phrases 'I can experience directly no self' and 'it might take a little practice to realize no self' alert me to that possibility. There is just the seeing that there is no separate self present, and never has been. My sole concern here is be absolutely sure that you see this, so please just either confirm that is clear to you, or let me know a bit more on how you feel about this.

It was easier to experience the "the self comes after the event itself" in raising my arm. That was
very clear. The "chooser" was more difficult. It felt a slightly more solid but on examination it was clearly not. The feeling was like a thick thought being added to the activity.

Good, nice phrase.

So Todd, you've looked so far at seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and touching, thinking, acting/doing, controlling, choosing and deciding and it looks to me as if you've not found so much as a trace of a separate self.

One area where we haven't yet looked yet is the body, and whether the self is the body, or is in the body. From direct experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Pete x

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

As it's been a while since you last posted, I thought that I'd just check to see if everything's ok with you.

Your investigation into whether a separate self can be found is going well and I wouldn't want you to lose momentum at this crucial stage.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Pete x

[Tigger]

My apologies, I did respond to the last injury with you but I guess it wasn't received or I didn't submit it correctly.
Thanks for following up.

Thanks for clarifying that. There's one thing I want to be sure about. As you know, this process is simply about looking in direct experience to see whether a separate self can be found anywhere. Once it's seen and therefore known for sure that no such entity can be found, and thoughts arising saying different are seen for what they are and are therefore not believed, then that's it, job done. A possible danger is that 'no-self' can be reified, i.e. become an apparent entity, that is believed in its own right in substitution for the belief in a separate self, effectively returning the process to square one. I'm not suggesting that this is happening to you, but your phrases 'I can experience directly no self' and 'it might take a little practice to realize no self' alert me to that possibility. There is just the seeing that there is no separate self present, and never has been. My sole concern here is be absolutely sure that you see this, so please just either confirm that is clear to you, or let me know a bit more on how you feel about this.

Clear

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Sorry, I asked this question a lot through out the day and sitting. I am insecure about my answer but here goes. Yes, there is an experience of sensations and thoughts as a part of the "Body". I can't say where the body begins or ends.
Are we speaking about the appearance of "Body"? What is the "Body". I am not deliberately being obtuse. That's my direct experience.

It would seem like I need more pointing to answer this question.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Yes, the body is just another thought label. One could call it anything they would like but it would not change the nature of the experience of "Body" namely tactile and kinesthetic.

Hope all is well,
tw

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

My apologies, I did respond to the last injury with you but I guess it wasn't received or I didn't submit it correctly. Thanks for following up.

No problem. It seems to happen occasionally that replies just get lost in space. Who knows why?

Clear

Good to know.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Yes, the body is just another thought label. One could call it anything they would like but it would not change the nature of the experience of "Body" namely tactile and kinaesthetic.

Yep, that's it. Simple and to the point.

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Sorry, I asked this question a lot through out the day and sitting. I am insecure about my answer but here goes. Yes, there is an experience of sensations and thoughts as a part of the "Body". I can't say where the body begins or ends.
Are we speaking about the appearance of "Body"? What is the "Body". I am not deliberately being obtuse. That's my direct experience. It would seem like I need more pointing to answer this question.

No, you're not being obtuse at all Todd. I don't really think both questions were needed for you as your answer to the second (quote first here) was so clear. The first question can be a wee bit confusing. The point here is to be sure whether you can see through the 'body' label in direct experience, and so see that there can be no separate self either as, or in, 'the body', just 'bodily sensations'. You've clearly done that but, if you're still uncertain, or anything about this is still unclear, please let me know what it is and we'll look at it in more depth.

Anyway Todd, you've looked and looked everywhere there is to look in direct experience and you haven't been able to find even a trace of a self-entity, either blatantly apparent or hiding, anywhere.

So, before we review and revisit any areas where more looking might be needed, l'd like you just to look at all of this from a slightly different perspective:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Pete x

[Tigger]

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Just Experience, the True Nature of one's Self. Naked awareness.

What thinks?

Nothing. Thoughts just appear. A separate self is the one that formulates an idea, image, construct around or about to align with prior conditioning projecting into the future. What thinks in not aware of the present moment.

What does?

A separate self. The story of a non-existing me within Awareness.

What is aware?

The Unknown, Awareness. From time to time now the experience of the "Unknown" as mystery deepens even awareness is unknowable.

Thanks again so much Pete x

Big Love,
tw

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

Splendid replies. I'm really pleased that you can see so clearly :)

You've now looked at all areas of direct experience and you haven't found a self-entity lurking there anywhere. So, I think now's a good time, before we move to 'final questions', just briefly to review everything we've done so far, just to see if you need to revisit any aspects to look in more depth for any evidence of a self-entity anywhere at all.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It might seem like a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. It doesn't look to me as if there's likely to be much, if anything, but basically, we just need to tidy up and identify any areas that need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Pete x

[Tigger]

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

No

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

There is no doubt and it is clear that in all these cases the "self" is nothing other than a mental fabrication.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

No doubts about seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

Thanks,
tw

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

Thanks for your answers, clearly confirming your seeing.

So, here are the 'final questions'. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get your answers, and have clarified anything with you that I might need to, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then, if you wish, I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. If you do want access to the FB groups, please either let me know your FB details here or, if you prefer, PM them to me.

Always from direct experience:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

It's been really enjoyable guiding you Todd.

Pete x

[Tigger]

Hi Pete x,

Yes, I would be interested in aftercare, other groups and Facebook.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No separate entity "self, "me" or "I" at all anywhere, in any way, shape or form. Never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Within the whole of reality exists a small but powerful biological and mechanical function that can create the feeling of a separate "self". This specific function originates in mind only as thought. It can also be initiated in the body though a mis-idenification or ownership with the senses. It has a centering effect or feeling to it. Hence this illusion that began as a non-solid object or belief can ground itself into ones psychological, emotional and physical perceptual reality and seem very solid.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Lighter, clearer, freer, at ease, empty, full, present, open, curious in a different way. Extraordinarily Ordinary.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Decision: made from the flow of being rather than a "separate self". Intention: To be a lived expression of reality rather than an idea from a "separate self"like fame, fortune, consumption or self-esteem. Free will: means inclusive, freedom to be anything as opposite to freedom from something. Choice: having more clarity about who or what is choosing. Control: doesn't exit.
What makes thing happen? I have no idea it is just happening. How does it work? The way it is working. What are you responsible for. "Being". Which seems in its nature to be of benefit to myself and others.

Please give examples from recent experience.

This morning I did one of my usual morning workouts. Trying to suck my heart out of my throat skinning up 3,000 vertical feet and then skiing down alone in 5" of fresh power. I experience no one or no thing as "separate" just the doing and being of it. Again extraordinarily ordinary; nothing added.

Thanks so much for all your time and expert pointing Peter x. Where may I make a donation?

Big Love,
tw

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

Thanks for your succinct answers. Before I ask the other guides to have a look at this thread, can you let me have your reply to my question 4 please.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It's been my pleasure helping you Todd. Thanks for your kind offer of a donation, much appreciated. I understand that LU cannot accept donations. But you could, if so inclined, become a guide. No pressure at all but, if you decided to so, either soon or later on, that would be great.

Pete x

[Tigger]

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Push is the correct word. It was a combination of things. Your pointing for sure and the going back to the basics to recapture and reconfirm what I already had come to know. A blend of deep honesty, integrity, allowing, acknowledging and inviting. Yes, especially, inviting. Inviting everything. In the past I would look a one thing or another as inquiry rather controlled but this time it was inviting the whole without preference. Not know what would happen. Nothing happened but a simplicity. A fearless simplicity and ordinariness.

Thanks again and take care of YourSelf!

tw

[moondog]

Thanks Todd.

I've now asked the guides to have a look at this thread and I'll let you know as soon as I can whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check whenever you can, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or two or longer, or it can be quicker. No worries.

After that, I'll arrange for you to get access to various groups on Facebook and the LU site. You can just PM your Facebook details if that's what you want.

Pete x

[Tigger]

Thanks