Question

[AWH301]

Hi Tao, here's the last of the questions.

So is it even a decision, or just a set of unfolding events? Decision would imply there is a decider. 'Decision' is a concept, based entirely on the idea of a 'me'.

Yes, it’s just a set of unfolding events. The unfolding events and appearance of experience don’t affect the seeing.

Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan,

Thank you for your answers, will get back to you soon.

Tao

[AWH301]

Thank you Tao! Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan, as you know you have been confirmed as seeing through the illusion at this point. You would like some continued guidance so we can do that here. It may be a little different, less rigid and formal, but good to keep up inquiry for a while. Here is our conversation from a few days ago:

Hi Tao, Thank you for assisting me last month! I do have some doubts coming up. The daily communication with you seemed to keep the process active. I still am using various resources during the day, but having a dialog would probably be helpful. If I stop and look (inquire), I remind myself that there's no personal self there, and at times that seems to sink in. As mentioned in the guide there are moments of pointlessness. If you have any suggestions on how to approach the aftercare I'd appreciate it. Allan

Friday 11:34

Hi Allan, nice to hear from you. No problem at all, it was a pleasure assisting you. I understand exactly where you are coming from. When I finished the LU process around a year and a half ago I had no idea where to go with it, so many groups, so many changing perspectives, it's an interesting time for sure. I can't believe how much things have changed, even since then. Awakening certainly isn't what one imagines it to be. The one to one contact is perhaps the most vital tool for inquiry. I would be happy to continue our one to one dialog on here if you would like to continue? You may well find other guides or groups along the way you would like to work with, we can continue for as long as you need, until you are ready to move on, perhaps I can help point you in the right direction. Let me know what you would like to do.

The pointlessness is a sure sign that ego patterns are dissolving. It can feel disorientating, even depressing, but what point does there need to be? It becomes quite a beautiful thing, that pointlessness. In fact it becomes truly liberating. The self story is surviving on the idea that all this (life and so on) is for a reason, it must be, otherwise, what is the point right? What if there is no point? Would that change anything? How would be different?
Friday 18:05

Thank you! I appreciate your response. Yes, it isn't what I expected. I thought it would be more certain, and yet there does seem to be a certain oscillation. And yes, I would appreciate continuing on for a bit.

On the pointlessness. When it comes up I use it as an inquiry to see who considers life pointless. And you are right. It would be no different. Allan

Indeed, even pointlessness is still just a certain perspective that arises. One could say that life is meaningless, but even this isn't true, because meaning is just an idea, therefore so is meaninglessness. And an idea is just an arising thought, no thought can define This That IS.

The feeling of pointlessness, at least let's call it that, is an open space, an invitation to remain as awareness, to be nobody at all. It doesn't have to give rise to, "This is pointless so therefore. . . ." THIS can just be, as it is.

How have things been the last few days? Is there anything in particular you would like to look at?

Tao

[AWH301]

Thanks Tao, I like the reminder that even pointlessness is an open space and an invitation to remain as awareness. The past few days have been ok, though I've been preoccupied with a family member who is not well at the moment. I find myself getting lost in the story of my own thoughts and images about it. However, just describing it helps to look at the thoughts and emotions as they occur. I'd like to have a look at powerful emotions and thoughts. Allan

[Tao]

Thanks Tao, I like the reminder that even pointlessness is an open space and an invitation to remain as awareness. The past few days have been ok, though I've been preoccupied with a family member who is not well at the moment. I find myself getting lost in the story of my own thoughts and images about it. However, just describing it helps to look at the thoughts and emotions as they occur. I'd like to have a look at powerful emotions and thoughts. Allan

Hi Allan,

Ok great,

What does getting lost in the story involve? Please describe in as much detail as possible.

Please lay it all out for me. What emotions are they and how do they feel? What are the thoughts saying? Is there a sense that something needs to be done? Write a running commentary if need be. Just get it all down and we can take a closer inspection at what is happening.

Tao

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,

What does getting lost in the story involve? Please describe in as much detail as possible.

Please lay it all out for me. What emotions are they and how do they feel? What are the thoughts saying? Is there a sense that something needs to be done? Write a running commentary if need be. Just get it all down and we can take a closer inspection at what is happening.

This morning working on a frustrating task I could see myself spiraling into negative thoughts and sensations, worrying (needlessly) that I could finish the task, and even going into anxiety. The task was not really difficult, so there was no worry that I could get it done. I noticed that the thoughts appearing about myself instantaneously flash down into sensations in the body. It’s like a storm loop of negativity. I stopped on occasion just to look at this inner storm and to notice how the mind has a habit of almost continual negative thought creation when not noticed and looked at.

By getting lost in it, I forget that it’s not under my control and that everything is happening spontaneously and that life is moving. The story of mind asserting its worry and control comes up until I notice or look again and let the story continue on its own. It's like drifting into a fog and forgetting.

The emotions and sensations are unpleasant; anxiety, fear, guilt. They’re attached to a story of not getting things done quickly or of not getting things right. I’m not in a high pressure situation, so the pressure is not appearing from ‘outside’. It’s internal and habitual.

There’s also an undercurrent of futility at times. This feeling oscillates. Yesterday morning everything felt fluid and easeful, as though recognition was effortless. Then it oscillates out into uneasy feelings and awkward situations, getting angry at people, driving upset, spending an evening in front of the TV. Then I remember that I can’t find a separate me in reality, and that I don’t create awareness either. I ponder what it means to have ‘no one’ there that’s creating any of this. That’s relief.

As I consider what I’m writing it appears laughable, and I ask myself how the recognition and ease can come and go so easily. It goes, and then I see clearly that awareness becomes whatever it looks at, but can also recognize itself.
Standing (for lack of a better word) in the looking I can watch the whole thing like a story, the thought, the body, the mind, the sensations, etc. It seems like I have to remember to do that though.
Thanks!
Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan

This morning working on a frustrating task I could see myself spiraling into negative thoughts and sensations, worrying (needlessly) that I could finish the task, and even going into anxiety.

So let's look even closer at this process right here. What exactly is it that makes the task frustrating? What is it that makes something difficult?

I would say it is something like this:

Contracting sensations, a general feeling of 'unease or anxiety', (if we must label it that is)

Also

A bunch of thoughts that suggest a future moment needs to be reached, and 'I' have the power and responsibility to do something about it. Perhaps this also comes with a sense of being located in time, and being currently, 'not good enough' in someway. Either way, thoughts are interpreting feelings/emotions as meaning "THIS is not good enough', I need to do something".

Does this sound close? How would you reword it?

By getting lost in it, I forget that it’s not under my control and that everything is happening spontaneously and that life is moving. The story of mind asserting its worry and control comes up until I notice or look again and let the story continue on its own. It's like drifting into a fog and forgetting.

This part is the clever illusion. Of course no-one or no-thing ever gets lost or forgets anything. Thoughts make it appear that way. This assumption comes back full circle to the 'I' that is apart or separate from. When these thoughts and feelings wash over they create the illusion that there is a 'me' and a something 'other than' that is perhaps unknown or missing. Thoughts automatically imply separation. 'I get lost in thoughts', is a thought about somebody getting lost in thoughts. There would have to be an 'I' in the first place, but there isn't.

So rather than going with the content of thoughts, let's go directly to the emotions/sensations.

The emotions and sensations are unpleasant; anxiety, fear, guilt. They’re attached to a story of not getting things done quickly or of not getting things right. I’m not in a high pressure situation, so the pressure is not appearing from ‘outside’. It’s internal and habitual.

Very good that this is noticed. You are not in a high pressure situation, but even if you were, would you have any control or power to change things or get things right? Is the content of thoughts helpful in this situation? Can you do ANYthing about what IS?

Go directly to the emotions/sensations, allow them to be exactly as they are. Do these sensations have to give rise to the thought interpretations? You say they are habitual, what makes them habitual? Where is the trigger? Have a look. Stay with the emotions/sensations and see what they have to reveal. Perhaps we're making assumptions too quickly about what these sensations are all about. Do these thought assumptions get triggered by something?

Are the feelings/emotions related in anyway to the thoughts or the content of thoughts?

Tao

[AWH301]

So let's look even closer at this process right here. What exactly is it that makes the task frustrating? What is it that makes something difficult?

I would say it is something like this:

Contracting sensations, a general feeling of 'unease or anxiety', (if we must label it that is)

What makes it difficult is the thought that it is difficult or the thought that I may make a mistake. Thoughts about difficulty correspond with feelings of unease, anxiety, contraction, guilt.

Also A bunch of thoughts that suggest a future moment needs to be reached, and 'I' have the power and responsibility to do something about it. Perhaps this also comes with a sense of being located in time, and being currently, 'not good enough' in someway. Either way, thoughts are interpreting feelings/emotions as meaning "THIS is not good enough', I need to do something".

Does this sound close? How would you reword it?

Yes, I would agree with that. There’s definitely a feeling of not being good enough. Even responding on this post there is the same feeling that I have no idea what the answer is and I’m going to get it wrong. There’s the need to find out what is right. I need to please someone by getting the right answer.

Even as I write this I notice both the idea/image of a me and of a someone else, even though that someone else is vague.

Addicted to getting it right and getting approval for getting it right. This is a dance going on in the mind and thoughts. I don’t want to be noticed for not getting it right, for making a mistake.

Very good that this is noticed. You are not in a high pressure situation, but even if you were, would you have any control or power to change things or get things right? Is the content of thoughts helpful in this situation? Can you do ANYthing about what IS?

Thoughts say that there is control and power and that something can be done. However, even in this situation of responding to simple questions, thoughts are useless. The mind just goes into crisis mode and a kind of despair or giving up.

Go directly to the emotions/sensations, allow them to be exactly as they are. Do these sensations have to give rise to the thought interpretations? You say they are habitual, what makes them habitual? Where is the trigger? Have a look. Stay with the emotions/sensations and see what they have to reveal. Perhaps we're making assumptions too quickly about what these sensations are all about. Do these thought assumptions get triggered by something?

No, the emotions do not have to give rise to interpretation. There are only triggers and habits based on circumstances. For instance, if the work volume is low, judgmental thoughts come up that something is wrong. There are emotions and sensations based on that observation. If work volume is high, there are all the emotions and thoughts that arise about that. In both circumstances the patterns seem to be consistent with each set of slow or busy. Definitely there is an assumption that the thoughts and emotions get triggered by the events.

Are the feelings/emotions related in anyway to the thoughts or the content of thoughts?

There’s also an assumption about that relationship. Guilt seems to appear at the same time as a thought that I did something wrong or hurtful. If I remember that situation repeatedly, the feeling of guilt continues to appear, or the feeling and the thought appear simultaneously.

Thanks,
Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan

What makes it difficult is the thought that it is difficult or the thought that I may make a mistake. Thoughts about difficulty correspond with feelings of unease, anxiety, contraction, guilt.

Ok so 'difficulty' is just a 'me' story? Is anything actually difficult? Is there anything you can do differently from what is occurring?

Yes, I would agree with that. There’s definitely a feeling of not being good enough. Even responding on this post there is the same feeling that I have no idea what the answer is and I’m going to get it wrong. There’s the need to find out what is right. I need to please someone by getting the right answer.

Is there a right answer? Is this something that you can find with enough effort? Or is there just what is appearing, including the perceptions of right and wrong?

When you write on here - Are you the author of what is being written? Do you have any control or choice over what thoughts may appear, or what volitions to type appear?

Even as I write this I notice both the idea/image of a me and of a someone else, even though that someone else is vague.

Exactly what I'm talking about. A sense of a 'self' and somewhat vague 'other'.

Addicted to getting it right and getting approval for getting it right. This is a dance going on in the mind and thoughts. I don’t want to be noticed for not getting it right, for making a mistake.

Does this 'vague other' actually exist? Can it be found in direct experience? What if, all you ever know is your own thoughts and feelings?

When someone is criticising you, do you experience their thoughts and feelings? Or do you experience only your own thoughts and feelings about what is occurring?

When you think that someone is thinking badly of you, can you ever experience their thoughts? Or can you only ever experience your own thoughts?

Thoughts say that there is control and power and that something can be done. However, even in this situation of responding to simple questions, thoughts are useless. The mind just goes into crisis mode and a kind of despair or giving up.

Yes, thoughts are incorrect, that's why they are useless in this case. This is clear in direct experience. Thoughts imply that someone can do something wrong somehow, but this is impossible, it automatically implies a self that simply isn't there and cannot be found, anywhere. There maybe a story of Allan doing something wrong and being scorned and feeling awful, but the actual controller, that could have done things differently, where is it? - Is this simply a retrospective speculation?

When you are performing a task, do you have ANY control over whether a mistake is made? If a mistake happens and you get criticised, could you have done it differently?

No, the emotions do not have to give rise to interpretation. There are only triggers and habits based on circumstances. For instance, if the work volume is low, judgmental thoughts come up that something is wrong. There are emotions and sensations based on that observation. If work volume is high, there are all the emotions and thoughts that arise about that. In both circumstances the patterns seem to be consistent with each set of slow or busy. Definitely there is an assumption that the thoughts and emotions get triggered by the events.

Ok so we're getting right to the heart of what we call 'habitual responses'. As you say, there is an assumption that specific observations trigger specific emotions and thoughts.

So we need to find this trigger. Let's not assume it isn't there. You can either wait for something to happen at work to trigger a stress response, or you can 'imagine' a situation in which you are put under lots of pressure. When certain observations give rise to these thoughts and emotions, look everywhere in experience for that which triggers the 'habitual' response.

There’s also an assumption about that relationship. Guilt seems to appear at the same time as a thought that I did something wrong or hurtful. If I remember that situation repeatedly, the feeling of guilt continues to appear, or the feeling and the thought appear simultaneously.

Yes this is where we need to look.

Remember a situation, perhaps the worst one you can remember in which you *thought* you did something wrong or hurtful. Remember it repeatedly. See if you can find that relationship in experience, it's the same as looking for the trigger, let me know what you find. It is not enough to say the thought or the event triggers the feelings, how does it trigger it? Is there some kind of switch that gets flipped?

Tao

p.s I'm away again this weekend, will be back online on Monday. Plenty to look at all the same. Post as much as you wish in the meantime.

[AWH301]

Thanks Tao!

[AWH301]

Ok so 'difficulty' is just a 'me' story? Is anything actually difficult? Is there anything you can do differently from what is occurring?

Yes, it’s just a me story. Nothing is actually difficult since everything is happening on its own. What is occurring is occurring, so there’s nothing different that can be done.

Is there a right answer? Is this something that you can find with enough effort? Or is there just what is appearing, including the perceptions of right and wrong?

Yes, there is just what is appearing including right and wrong. That’s just the story appearing as mind and thought.

When you write on here - Are you the author of what is being written? Do you have any control or choice over what thoughts may appear, or what volitions to type appear?

No. It’s just seems that way in the appearance of what’s happening. There’s just what’s looking, hearing sensing.

Does this 'vague other' actually exist? Can it be found in direct experience? What if, all you ever know is your own thoughts and feelings?

The ‘other’ only exists as thoughts/images appearing. The other can’t be found in thoughts. It’s quite an illusion/charade taking place if all that is known is taking place in one’s own thoughts and feelings.

I just saw science fiction show on TV. It was about a young woman who’s boyfriend dies and a friend sets her up with a service that reproduces his voice and speech via smartphone to reduce her sense of loss. At one point the reproduction said to her, “I don’t even have a mouth to talk”. It really struck me how the whole affair of mind is being generated without anyone there, much like that. The dialogs are just happening. Just like a machine.

Does this 'vague other' actually exist? Can it be found in direct experience? What if, all you ever know is your own thoughts and feelings?

I only experience my own thoughts and feelings.

When you think that someone is thinking badly of you, can you ever experience their thoughts? Or can you only ever experience your own thoughts?

I can only experience my own thoughts.

More later,

Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan

Yes, it’s just a me story. Nothing is actually difficult since everything is happening on its own. What is occurring is occurring, so there’s nothing different that can be done.

So, the felt tensions and anxieties, and the stories about having to get something right to please somebody, not making a mistake and so on, are not helpful at all, because ultimately, nothing can be done?

So when the anxieties emerge, surrender to them, don't go with what the thoughts are saying, go to the feeling, and see what it is expressing without listening to the story that goes on top. The stories are not accurate, so we must see what the feelings are actually expressing.

No. It’s just seems that way in the appearance of what’s happening. There’s just what’s looking, hearing sensing.

So what is it that is looking, hearing, sensing?

The ‘other’ only exists as thoughts/images appearing. The other can’t be found in thoughts. It’s quite an illusion/charade taking place if all that is known is taking place in one’s own thoughts and feelings.

It was more of a pointer to help you see that what is imagined, (e.g, "He thinks I'm useless at this job"), is not really real. In other words, those thoughts we assume he is having do not exist outside of the thought that assumes them. They are not there, neither is the impending doom that is sensed. There is nothing to fear. This is the illusion. There is no other. There is not one's own thoughts and feelings, there is only thoughts and feelings.

I just saw science fiction show on TV. It was about a young woman who’s boyfriend dies and a friend sets her up with a service that reproduces his voice and speech via smartphone to reduce her sense of loss. At one point the reproduction said to her, “I don’t even have a mouth to talk”. It really struck me how the whole affair of mind is being generated without anyone there, much like that. The dialogs are just happening. Just like a machine.

Great, these kind of pointers seem to spring up everywhere the more immersed in inquiry we become :)

I only experience my own thoughts and feelings.

I can only experience my own thoughts.

So although we used language in this way, are they actually your own thoughts and feelings, i.e, do they belong to you or your mind?

Tao

[AWH301]

So when the anxieties emerge, surrender to them, don't go with what the thoughts are saying, go to the feeling, and see what it is expressing without listening to the story that goes on top. The stories are not accurate, so we must see what the feelings are actually expressing.

This morning I had some anxiety. It seemed like it came up in response to thoughts that I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing, not doing it right, etc. It's slow here, so I had time to just sit with the sensations. The message I got is that the mind is overriding feeling, shut it down. It's like the mind is trying to override the sensations of the heart and body. The sensations just need to be allowed. The thoughts also.

So what is it that is looking, hearing, sensing?

Awareness is looking, hearing and sensing.

It was more of a pointer to help you see that what is imagined, (e.g, "He thinks I'm useless at this job"), is not really real. In other words, those thoughts we assume he is having do not exist outside of the thought that assumes them. They are not there, neither is the impending doom that is sensed. There is nothing to fear. This is the illusion. There is no other. There is not one's own thoughts and feelings, there is only thoughts and feelings.

Got it.

So although we used language in this way, are they actually your own thoughts and feelings, i.e, do they belong to you or your mind?

No. They don't.

Thanks,
Allan

[Tao]

This morning I had some anxiety. It seemed like it came up in response to thoughts that I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing, not doing it right, etc. It's slow here, so I had time to just sit with the sensations. The message I got is that the mind is overriding feeling, shut it down. It's like the mind is trying to override the sensations of the heart and body. The sensations just need to be allowed. The thoughts also.

Yes exactly. Identifying with thoughts seems to override the feeling level entirely - the feelings need to be allowed in their entirety without following the stories up; in this way tensions can be released from the body, and these persistent patterns begin to break up.

Awareness is looking, hearing and sensing.

Is awareness looking? Can you find the process of looking anywhere?

Tao