Ready to go

[Deejay]

Hi LV,

Great. Beautifully clear! :-)

The banana.
This time with eyes open say 'banana' and see the mental image. Then see it dissipate.
Now look at a real, true banana. See how this one does not disappear! Even if you relax! :-)

at the end of this session tried saying 'I' again and looking for what it labels, not finding anything but an emptiness, an emptiness my imagination struggles to fill with something vague and floating, a consciousness but there's nothing actually there. This struggle to fill makes it hard to stay with the emptiness

Brilliant. Great that you see the impulse to fabricate something for the label to stick to… the habit of that. This 'mind glue' is sticky!

The illusion of earwigs crawling over my feet whilst I meditated: when I closed my eyes again the label and mental image reoccurred. I think I had to open my eyes more than once. But then my trust in what I'd seen directly became stronger than the illusion. Then, the earwig label and mental image could arise and I KNEW it as illusion. Just mind and mind glue. Nothing actually there.

Do you see clearly that 'I' is a fabrication of the mind?

Love,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Hi Deejay,

Do you see clearly that 'I' is a fabrication of the mind?

Well, I can't find it when I look in DE, but I still behave most of the time as if there is an 'I'. There doesn't feel like there's been a shift but your story about the earwigs rings true. AM happy to keep looking, again and again until the habit breaks.

Love,

LV xxxx

[Deejay]

Hi LV,

Well, I can't find it when I look in DE, but I still behave most of the time as if there is an 'I'.

Yes, that behaviour continues because of the huge momentum of habit. Old programmes which then need updating in the light of seeing this. It's very common for there to be the expectation that there will be huge changes instantly. Sometimes, but it's generally more that this understanding makes change possible; clears the way for it to unfold.

There doesn't feel like there's been a shift but your story about the earwigs rings true.

For some people there's an obvious shift; for others more gradual or imperceptible. What's important is that you see clearly. That there is no self in any shape or form; there just is not. Never has been, and never will be. Do you see that? If so: you didn't at the beginning of this process, right? So that would be a shift.

AM happy to keep looking, again and again until the habit breaks.

Great. That repeated looking is what is needed after this process... But that looking continues up to full and total Awakening! (according to the Buddhist model). Fetter model: Total breaking of that habit of 'I' on all levels = Awakening.

Are you clear that there is no 'I' who experiences: experiencing just happens?
Are you clear that there is no 'I' who choses, decides, is responsible?
Are you clear that these experiences we label 'body' are not 'I'?
Are you clear that these experiences we label 'mind' are not 'I'?

love,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Hi Deejay

For some people there's an obvious shift; for others more gradual or imperceptible. What's important is that you see clearly. That there is no self in any shape or form; there just is not. Never has been, and never will be. Do you see that? If so: you didn't at the beginning of this process, right? So that would be a shift.

Well sitting here on the tram that stickiness of the mind, that habit to make the self, is more dominant than any clear seeing that there is no self. Am in a familiar place where having answered the questions honestly and seen what was there nothing feels like it has changed. But as I said...

AM happy to keep looking, again and again until the habit breaks.

Are you clear that there is no 'I' who experiences: experiencing just happens?

Well not yet, no. I'm not clear about it. I've glimpsed it, In controlled circumstances but have to return to these to see it again.
That answer goes for all of the questions below.

Are you clear that there is no 'I' who choses, decides, is responsible?
Are you clear that these experiences we label 'body' are not 'I'?
Are you clear that these experiences we label 'mind' are not 'I'?

The possibility that something has been seen but it's subtle has come up before but I can't honestly say there's been any fundamental change.

But as I said, I'll keep looking.

Love

LV

[Deejay]

Hi LV,

Am in a familiar place where having answered the questions honestly and seen what was there nothing feels like it has changed.

Ok. The thing is, what is it precisely that you expect to change? Expectations!
Are you expecting some clear end point when

'the habit breaks'?

What will that be like?

Well sitting here on the tram that stickiness of the mind, that habit to make the self, is more dominant than any clear seeing that there is no self.

Look at the stickiness.
Is it sensations, thoughts, or both?

Are there doubt thoughts which are believed? If so, I imagine they distract from looking.

Watch doubt thoughts arise and see how then when they're done… they're totally absent. Gone! Watch how wispy thoughts are… yet we give them so much power!

Are any doubt words glueing to unpleasant body sensations?
Take any doubt words that are believed and picture them in a frame. Can you see them as shapes?

I'm away from tomorrow afternoon for a week, but can probably get online Weds and Thurs.

I'm not clear about it. I've glimpsed it, In controlled circumstances but have to return to these to see it again.

Ok. Your recent report backs sound beautifully clear though. I'm going to suggest you look in less and less controlled circumstances. But the above qs are enough for now!

Love,
Deejay

[Deejay]

Hi LV,

I suggest first off reply to my last qs, and then whilst I'm away, keep looking and report back briefly each day.

When you have controlled circumstances you could look at the illusion itself in that rigorous way, as you've just done recently, listing sticky components etc. But mostly just do a simpler looking. Don't focus on the illusion. Just look and see nothing there.

Look as if you're a child looking in their pocket to see if their marble is there.

Seeing this is not some kind of permanent state. There are no permanent states.
Habit, illusion, stickiness, glue, gate… they are just words, to be used when helpful, seen beyond when clung to. Do you see that?

Love,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Hi Deejay,

My apologies I've just re-read your post and noticed you wanted me to post everyday. I've now spread my notes for the last three days over several devices and won't be able to collate them all til I return to work tomorrow but wil send you through everything up to date then.



First to answer the questions

Ok. The thing is, what is it precisely that you expect to change? Expectations!

I expect some of the recurring things that people report in the dialogues of the Gateless Gatecrashers, clarity of perception, seeing the world without the narrowness of self, a sense of freedom, a sense of peace.

Are you expecting some clear end point when

'the habit breaks'?

What will that be like?

When the habit breaks I expect the point to be known. For there to be something incontrovertible, for there to be a sense that the perspective has shifted irrecoverably. For the world to be experience differently.

Are there doubt thoughts which are believed? If so, I imagine they distract from looking.

Watch doubt thoughts arise and see how then when they're done… they're totally absent. Gone! Watch how wispy thoughts are… yet we give them so much power!

Are any doubt words glueing to unpleasant body sensations?
Take any doubt words that are believed and picture them in a frame. Can you see them as shapes?[\quote]

doubt thougths - i can never escape thoughts, I'm trapped in thought

jaw tightens

I can see them as shapes though this doesn't make much difference.

Habit, illusion, stickiness, glue, gate… they are just words, to be used when helpful, seen beyond when clung to. Do you see that? [\quote]

Intellectually yes but this is maybe the point. One of the thigns that i saw when looking less formally for the self was how often it's 'found' in the constant stream of chat that goes on in my head, barely consciously. when I practice DE or mindfulness genrally the chat stops for a while and a wider, more present awareness arrives. But the internal chat is a strong habit which has me filtering everything through it. For the last three days I'll ask every now and then, "Where is the self ?" and go looking for it in present experience. The main two results are

1/ getting distracted and

2/ reaching a point where the self is identifed with this internal voice, with thinking.

I can't control the world with my thoughts.

Stickiness

Images/sensations of ghost like enclosures in the head. As I write this i see how incoherent and vague these sensations thoughts are. It's as if when I approach the obstruction everything gets vague...

And now for your other suggestion to just keep looking more casually. Very interesting about five times. During the day just asking myself where is the self. And all I can find is sense experience glued together and pointed over by a thin layer of thought. This but plausible, like a stage set, that works perfectly when you're in the sorry but looks pathetically tacky when examined afterwards.

Challenge here is to stay with these moments, there's always something else to do (to clean, prepare, mend- I have three children under 8) and am noticing a resistance to it too.

But have to say I can't find anything more than sensation and thoughts that paint something over these which insists there's a self involved. But there is not thing there.

Pressing on... maybe there's nothing there at all and I am imagining obstacles.


This is getting very long.

Love

LV x

[Deejay]

Hi LV,

But the internal chat is a strong habit which has me filtering everything through it.

I think you will find that those who say they do not have internal chat as a strong habit are a tiny minority.

This process is not going to stop that habit.

But what can unfold during and after the process is that it can gradually become easier to give thoughts less filtering power.

When you notice doubt thoughts glueing to unpleasant body sensations, separate out those two components. Pay attention to just the sensations. Notice that they are a distinct experience, quite different from the thought. Now revisit the thought. Is it any easier to see it as just a wispy momentary arising, its content unreal?

NOW put the words in a frame. Separate out the words. Separate out the letters. See the space between them. See them as shapes. Any subtle effect?

I'm trapped in thought

Look. Can you find something that is trapped in thought?

All I can find is sense experience glued together and pointed over by a thin layer of thought. This looks plausible, like a stage set, that works perfectly when you're in the story but looks pathetically tacky when examined afterwards.

Yes, exactly and precisely.

have to say I can't find anything more than sensation and thoughts that paint something over these which insists there's a self involved. But there is not thing there.

Exactly.

maybe there's nothing there at all and I am imagining obstacles.

Yes.

Great to get those very clear answers re hopes and expectations, we'll return to these v soon, but this is enough for now. :-)

Love,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Hi Deejay,

Doubt thoughts

I'm trapped inside the self:

Tension in the front of the face
Imaginative picture of ghostlike strands inside


I can't escape my thoughts:

Tension in forehead
Field of vision feels narrower, sharper, harder


This is tricky as I am only beginning to articulate the doubts to myself which makes them feel stronger rather than weaker. So I don't notice any particular effect when separating out the thought from the above.


Find it very hard to believe that the content of thought is unreal, as it has such an influence on the real. This is a sticking point - the idea that the contents of thought are any less real than sensation. Anything that could help me see that better would be welcome.




Separating out sentence into words then letters etc....

Yes a subtle effect of more clarity, more freedom.

What is tapped inside of thoughts?

An imaginary figure who actually sits somewhere in my head / upper chest.

The sensation is an impulse to immediately imagine a figure looking out of the eyes, it doesn't have to be there but I notice how quickly it is imposed if for a few seconds awareness widens.

Love,

LV xx

[Deejay]

Hi LV,

What is trapped inside of thoughts?

An imaginary figure who actually sits somewhere in my head / upper chest.

So an imaginary figure is trapped by thoughts.
How does that work???!

Imagine the imaginary figure. Then try to trap it! With thoughts, with a net, a mousetrap, any old way will do. What happens??

Find it very hard to believe that the content of thought is unreal, as it has such an influence on the real. This is a sticking point - the idea that the contents of thought are any less real than sensation. Anything that could help me see that better would be welcome.

Ok!
The above trapping exercise addresses visual thoughts.
Here is one for word thoughts.

Write the words 'clear fresh water to drink' on a piece of paper.
Put it next to a glass of the real deal.
Thirsty in the desert, which would you choose?
Actually drink some of the water.
Can you drink the words?

Love,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Hi Deejay,

How does that work?

Well I'm reporting what's happening when I look at experience. This figure along with other vague but definitely present imaginations are part of the experience. Your incredulity implies it's impossible for it to exist. How I wish I had your certainty. I really do. When I read this site everyone seems so very clear about the distinction between the imagined and the real. So confident of the primacy of sensation over imagination. Maybe I am beguiled and intoxicated and addicted to thinking because it's not so obvious to me.

Imagine the imaginary figure. Then try to trap it! With thoughts, with a net, a mousetrap, any old way will do. What happens??

Well it dissapears just as looking for where a thought comes from makes it disappear. The statement was metaphorical. An attempt to describe a feeling of frustration whose sensations are tension in the skin of the face, a tightness in the chest. Plus the thought that 'I'm trapped in thoughts'

Just tried the framing the thought and then introducing space between words and letters. The whole thing dissappears, dissolves into a moment of clearer broader awareness.

Write the words 'clear fresh water to drink' on a piece of paper.
Put it next to a glass of the real deal.
Thirsty in the desert, which would you choose?

Okay so I actually used ' cold glass of non-alcoholic beer' which I was about to drink

I would choose the beer. And then have the huge richness of experience that was drinking the beer as opposed to the two dimensional experience of thinking about it. And I would have stayed thirsty.

BUT, and this is something that is still confusing me, my thirst would have been momentarily assuaged.

Actually drink some of the water.
Can you drink the words?

No.

And me the implications of this exercise were to see how the piece of paper was an indication of how I, we, spend so much of our lives in the secondary remove of thoughts about the world not the world itself. It is useful to see that piece of paper as a model for the thoughts in my head.

Love,

LV x

[Deejay]

Hi LV,

You seem very readily able to distinguish sense experience from mind experience. You saw and described beautifully how the illusion of self is constructed by the mind.

The confusion seems to be around the fact that mental experience has effects.

If I imagine an earwig crawling over my feet, that mental image and thought label might make me tense. There is an effect. But does that make the earwig a real one?

The effect, the tension, is happening because I'm believing that the earwig is a real one. I am believing it to be something that it is not.

After some looking I knew it was illusion, not a real earwig. Gradually I stopped believing in the real earwig. For a while the mental image and thought label still arose. But i knew them as illusion … so gradually the tension disappeared.

This process is about seeing that self is illusion. Seeing this is not some kind of permanent state. And, post-gate it will for most still be forgotten over and over, requiring looking again and again.

The illusory sense of self is mistaken for an actual self that experiences, takes action, is located in space and persists through time.
Can you find any actual self that can experience, or take action, or persist for even one moment?

If you observe the illusory self and relabel it: 'Experience'. Or: 'Life unfolding' - what happens?

Love,
Deejay

[Deejay]

Hi LV,
Are you ok?
Love,
Deejay

[philkingston]

Sorry Deejay. On business trip. Will post tomorrow.

Love

LV


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[philkingston]

Hi Deejay,

There isn't a self experiencing. When I look, there's only experience. The label that's creates a sense of self jumps in quickly afterwards.

The same with doing. I do have to look at experience, or the assumption creep back in. But when there is enough alertness it's obvious that the selfness part is added afterwards.

The self only persists as an imagined story.

When I replace it with 'experience' the world gets more vivid. This was a tricky exercise though, am still working on it, by that I mean remembering to do it more often and at times that wrong foot the habit of self.

Love

LVx







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