Another guide please

[marka]

OK. So it sounds like you expected that things would be different than this.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from?

it seems you've got the idea that you are flawed - the "proof" being that you had certain experiences that seem uncomfortable relative to other experiences.

from the recent exchanges, where are you getting this from?
there were some uncomfortable feelings - i don't remember making any sort of judgement on them?

[Armstrong]

I was thinking about this one:

so why, then, did 'I' get so damned 'tripped up' today on feelings? all day, had grumpy anger frustration - of course there was a story to it, bought into that too. And that's the point here - why did the emotion take over, like there was a 'me' feeling bad all day? I am not really understanding how I can have clarity demonstrated above (they are genuine answers) and then complete attachment to 'me' (perpetrated through emotions) for a whole day.

It is like you believe there's a you that sometimes "gets it" and sometimes doesn't "get it".
If that's believed, you're flawed, have a problem, etc. And then in addition to whatever happens to you and how likable or unlikable it is, you've got the problem of being frustrated about it when it seems you believe you shouldn't be frustrated.

I'd just ask you to stop regularly and check to see if there's a you that has a problem.

[marka]

ok.
based on actual experience, there are times when there is negative emotions and corresponding negative thoughts occurring.
There are also times when the opposite is true.
If you are saying that this quickly, sneakily, becomes a belief about how the self is or what the self is, then I can agree with that.
I can also agree with the next bit - being frustrated as a consequence of the belief process.

When you're asking for me to check if there's a 'me' that has a problem, you're asking me to look at the frustration and the source of it?
I can certainly do this and am intrigued as to whether this pattern clearly exists.

[Armstrong]

Based on what you wrote, it occurred to me that you might view your self as someone that has seen that you don't have a permanent separate self and someone that sometimes doesn't see it.

If that's what you think you are, it is important to make it explicit so that you can look and see if it is true or not.

If you wouldn't characterize yourself that way that's fine. I am curious to hear what you think you are and figured that guessing might help.

[marka]

It does fit yes.
Not thought of it like that before.
In fact today was a good illustration of this - had some of the morning of detachment, things just occurring, and an afternoon (later afternoon) of intense emotion time and no detachment! It was definitely happening to a 'me' at that point!

Oh. Also, had a moment the other morning, just as I woke when I realised what I was 'stuck' on (in that I noticed the attachment to self) .... however, fell back asleep for a while and then forgot the specifics. I am hoping that this will repeat itself as I believe it was significant.

Thanks for your observations.

[Armstrong]

Can you please check now and see if whatever thing you do or don't like is happening to a separate self -an "I"?

Also, the next time something is happening that you don't like, can you please check to see if there really is a "me" that it happens to?

Another thing you could do is spend a relaxing day and spend it looking for a separate self. Eg go into nature or eat some good food.

[marka]

Can you please check now and see if whatever thing you do or don't like is happening to a separate self -an "I"?

I'm cooking nice food .... like that - smelling good smells - no 'I' doing that, nor an I stirring with the spoon, nor an I seeing the colours, nor hearing the sound of the spoon on the pan.
I have literally just done this, this second.
And paying attention to thoughts also, exactly what they were up to ..... there was a 'part' that didn't like the scrutiny, like it was hiding or moving out of sight but I guess that is simply thought and story (like the thoughts were real but they may or may not have any actual truth behind them).
Essentially then, apart from that little interlude that came in after a few seconds, thoughts were doing very little in that process - just a focus on the food, the activity.

And that has made me think - that is what my days are like at present - just a focus on the activity bit by bit - it has to be as there are so many parcel drops to do, all extremely close. And thought simply gets busy planning the next stop, the best route, and comments on what is happening, moment by moment.

Also, the next time something is happening that you don't like, can you please check to see if there really is a "me" that it happens to?

I will certainly do this. It will be my next exercise. I think I have been doing this a bit over the past couple of days.

Another thing you could do is spend a relaxing day and spend it looking for a separate self. Eg go into nature or eat some good food.

Sure, although I am now working Sunday as well, at least a bit of it. I will have some down time though later in the day.

[Armstrong]

Another thing to look at, esp while driving.

You - aka "marka" understand these words right now.
If you move your foot or hand (as when driving) how is it connected to you - the thing that understands.

If you read "move right hand" you can do it. But how are you connected to the hand?
Check that out when driving - see how you read a label and move the hands and feet to get the truck to get where it must
go.

I am asking you to see how he "mind" is connected to the "body", and if you can find the connection.
Odd stuff - you aren't physical. The body is. How are they connectd?

And oh - is there an "I" connected to the body? Shouldn't you he able to find it?

[Armstrong]

I suggest you try right and left hands. See how their motions are connected to the mind. The non-dominant hand may give you more novel information.

[marka]

thank you, great and intriguing exercise. Immediately I don't know how 'I' am connected to the body - this is a good thing, means there is plenty to discover!
thanks again.

[Armstrong]

Ok. Let me know.

[marka]

I am asking you to see how he "mind" is connected to the "body", and if you can find the connection.
Odd stuff - you aren't physical. The body is. How are they connectd?

been looking a bit today - can't find that connection at present. I don't know how they are connected. I am going to keep looking, they must be connected, somehow ..... it's difficult to actually describe in words or to work it out precisely.

Also, the next time something is happening that you don't like, can you please check to see if there really is a "me" that it happens to?

Well, got in a bit of a bad mood this afternoon. Could not find a 'me' that it was happening to. This made the mood even worse and I realised that I wanted there to be a me that it was happening to - a 'me' that could get ever so attached to the feelings and claim ownership of them - surely there must be a me generating all this feeling .... lol
I will keep looking at this also.

[Armstrong]

Ok. Thanks very much for looking.

Thanks for looking. When you say "bad mood", what is that, in terms of direct experience? Moment by moment, what is a mood? If you don't think of something as a bad mood or a bad day, is it a mood or a day?

[marka]

i am finding it difficult to describe a mood. That is, I can desrbe the physical (i.e. anger, slightly flushed face, tension in hands, sensation in belly etc.) although this does nothing to represent the actual feeling of anger - it is something more than the physical - a space/location/added dimension that is difficult to quantify.
Although I guess in answer to your second question (Moment by moment, what is a mood?) it is literally physical sensations that we rely on.

Hmm. Had another time of frustration today and the same thing as yesterday - I could not find a 'me' experiencing that frustration, which this time seemed lighter; the frustration disappeared quickly.

this last part (If you don't think of something as a bad mood or a bad day, is it a mood or a day?), no but it is still happening just under a different guise - which will be what mind decides to label it instead.

[Armstrong]

Nice looking.
So is a mood or a day a real thing, like a sock?
Can you ever know for sure you're having a bad day or a bad mood? Isn't that like the car/driveway thought experiment, where the senile guy thinks his own car is someone else's, parked in his driveway?