Guide please

[ebw]

I did notice that the pain only appeared when I thought of it and remembered it.

I had the thought "I don't know what I am".
I asked the fear that came with it and this is how it played out.

I saw that it was not hiding or protecting anything.

I asked what the negative story was, and the thought came "I would cease to exist". So fear of death/nonexistence. Both of which are illusions. I realized that the fear wasn't real.

Images of someone I love and a sense of fear of leaving them behind. A sense of fear of losing my personality and turning into someone my friends and family wouldn't like/love anymore.

Behind it there is nothing, and the fear dissipates as well.

[Vivien]

Dear Estella,

I asked what the negative story was, and the thought came "I would cease to exist". So fear of death/nonexistence. Both of which are illusions. I realized that the fear wasn't real.

Oh yes, the fear of non-existence is one of the tricks of the illusion :)

You cannot cease to be, because there has never been a self in the first place! Never, ever! It’s always been just an illusion. So nothing will change. Nothing. Only the seeing that the self has always been just an illusion.

Images of someone I love and a sense of fear of leaving them behind. A sense of fear of losing my personality and turning into someone my friends and family wouldn't like/love anymore.

OK, we have to make a distinction between believing that there is a self and the personality.

The personality is the result of a lifelong conditioning. And just because it’s been seen that the self is just an illusion, it doesn’t’ mean that the personality goes away. The personality functions as it did previously, the only difference is the seeing that there hasn’t been a self, there is nothing that would own the personality.

Personality won’t cease to be, without it the organism wouldn’t be able to function. Over some time, there might be some changes in personality, like less anxiety, worry, ruminating on past or future, but the ‘basic structure’ of the personality remains.

OK, let’s go further with our investigation by investigating the senses.

Seeing
Currently there are words on the screen being read. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestion of thoughts.
What reads these words?
Is there anything that is reading, or reading is just happening?

Look around in the room. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestion of thoughts.
What sees?
Is there a seer somewhere, or there is just seeing happening?


Hearing
Pay attention for the background sounds. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestions of thoughts.
Does a hearer arise in the actual experience?
Is there somewhere a hearer, of just hearing happening?


Smelling
Smell something, an orange, coffee or the hand.
In the fragrance that arises, is there any direct evidence that there is a smeller (or a nose) that is doing the smelling, or is there only smelling?


Of course, thoughts and mental images suggest ‘explanations’, but when they are examined closely, are they really the case?

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

Yes, I recognize that there is no self, and have laughed at this many times in moments of realization.

Thank you for clarifying about personality. Maybe a lot of no-self fear is because of confusing it with personality.

What reads these words?

I cannot see anything reading. So there is nothing. Reading reads by itself.

Is there anything that is reading, or reading is just happening?

Reading is just happening on its own.

What sees?

Nothing that I can find so - nothing sees.

Is there a seer somewhere, or there is just seeing happening?

I do not see a seer, so seeing is just happening. Sight and seer are the same.

Does a hearer arise in the actual experience?

No, none that I can see.

Is there somewhere a hearer, of just hearing happening?

Hearing happens on its own.

For hearing, I felt some resistance in me, sort of a feeling of being compelled to say that there is a hearer. But I see otherwise.

In the fragrance that arises, is there any direct evidence that there is a smeller (or a nose) that is doing the smelling, or is there only smelling?

There is only smelling.

Of course, thoughts and mental images suggest ‘explanations’, but when they are examined closely, are they really the case?

No.

[Vivien]

OK, one more step further on investigating the body.

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from the senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

[ebw]

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No. In experience there is only breathing, hearing, tasting, smelling and touching. There is nothing that indicates bodily height. It almost feels like there is nothing to indicate a body, aside from sensations that bring up images/thoughts of those sensations being related to "my body".

Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?

No.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

This was interesting. I experienced some resistance and a feeling of being compelled to answer yes, and a sense/thought that said of course there has to be a boundary. But no, there is no boundary. I thought there might be a point where body and clothing are separate and where the lines begin to blur, but upon investigating experience, I cannot separate the feeling of my body inside the clothing from the feeling of the clothing on my body. They are one.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No, I cannot distinguish one from the other. (I was sitting on the floor but it's the same thing.) The only boundary comes in mental images, thoughts, ideas.

At this I feel wonderment and cognitive dissonance.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No. Form only comes with mental images.

The resistance was really strong with this one. I still feel like I don't agree with my finding, or doubtful of it, even though I also feel it to be true, I feel a strong doubt and fear.

Is there an inside or outside?

No. There is no outside, only right here, these sensations. So I could say everything is inside but to have an inside there must be an outside. So there is neither. Just this, what is happening right now.

What is the body in the actual experience?

There are thoughts and images about the body. In actual experience that does not include thought or memory or assumed knowledge, the only hint of a body comes from sensations.

It also seems to me like there is sound being heard by the body, air breathed by the body, taste tasted by the body, touch felt by the body. Even though I know this not to be true, I don't feel it and I feel doubtful of it.

I've also felt an increase in anxiety lately. I feel like I always need to be doing something, which is usually a small feeling for me but it has increased. Meditating was really difficult, I couldn't complete ten minutes. I feel like I am eroding internally. Which is nice, I take it as a sign of progress. Just wanted to mention it.

Thanks Vivien.

[Vivien]

Dear Estella,

No. In experience there is only breathing, hearing, tasting, smelling and touching. There is nothing that indicates bodily height. It almost feels like there is nothing to indicate a body, aside from sensations that bring up images/thoughts of those sensations being related to "my body".

Very good looking :)

I thought there might be a point where body and clothing are separate and where the lines begin to blur, but upon investigating experience, I cannot separate the feeling of my body inside the clothing from the feeling of the clothing on my body. They are one.

Yes.

At this I feel wonderment and cognitive dissonance.

and

The resistance was really strong with this one. I still feel like I don't agree with my finding, or doubtful of it, even though I also feel it to be true, I feel a strong doubt and fear.

What is this fear about? What the fear tries to tell? What is the story?

I've also felt an increase in anxiety lately. I feel like I always need to be doing something, which is usually a small feeling for me but it has increased. Meditating was really difficult, I couldn't complete ten minutes. I feel like I am eroding internally. Which is nice, I take it as a sign of progress. Just wanted to mention it.

Yes, thank you for mentioning it. This anxiety probably comes from the fearful story (see above). So there is an unconscious or partially conscious story about a negative consequence of seeing through the self. When this story is not seen only as arising thoughts in this moment, but rather it is believed, associated emotions can arise.

But the emotions are not what they SEEM to be.

So there are:

• (1) first, a pure, raw sensations
  (2) next, a thought label “there is no boundary”
  (3) a mental story interpreting the experiencing, with a conclusions why it is ‘dangerous’ or ‘fearful’
  (4) when the above story is believed, associated emotions arise (like fear or anxiety)

But the emotions are not what they SEEM to be.

• (1) When a story is believed, contraction can arise, which is nothing more than a pure sensation
  (2) AFTER a mental label emerge interpreting it as ‘fear’ or ‘anxiety’

So the pure sensation (contraction) and the mental label ‘anxiety’ is welded together. When this is not seen, BUMMM! The illusion of an emotion just has arisen.

But in the actual experience there is neither fear nor anxiety. Both are just mental labels, stuck to the pure experience (in this case felt contraction).

Can you see this process?

So what I suggest to do is when next time fear or anxiety comes up, stop whatever you do and sit with the sensation itself.

Ignore the story and the labels ‘fear’/’anxiety’, and sit only with the pure sensation (contraction). You don’t have to do anything with the contraction, only to observe it. Don’t try to manipulate or make it go away, just simply FEEL it, just let it be.

Let me know how it goes.

Here are 3 of my blog posts. You might find them useful.
http://fadingveiling.com/2014/10/28/run ... -emotions/
http://fadingveiling.com/2014/10/06/res ... esistance/
http://fadingveiling.com/2014/10/13/res ... vice-ofme/

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

The fear tries to affirm "I exist" and "I have a right to be here".

It felt really good to sit with the fear/anxiety. I realized the sensation felt kind of good at first when I focused on it, like a warm flutter in my chest. After a few minutes the pleasantness faded out to a neutral sensation. Without words, anxiety doesn't exist.

Wow.

Your articles left me with a deeper understanding. Thanks.

[Vivien]

The fear tries to affirm "I exist" and "I have a right to be here".

Yes, exactly. The function of the fear to keep the illusion of ‘me’ going.

It felt really good to sit with the fear/anxiety. I realized the sensation felt kind of good at first when I focused on it, like a warm flutter in my chest. After a few minutes the pleasantness faded out to a neutral sensation. Without words, anxiety doesn't exist.

Yes, very good. :) You can do this any time when fear or anxiety comes up, or with any emotions.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?

It has.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No...but feels like yes.

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

No.

Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?

No. Investigating just happened on its own.

Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

No.

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Perception still happens through the veil of thought.
I find myself caught up in stories until I remember to keep my attention on the present.
Maybe there is still something I'm believing keeping me from totally letting go.
I don't feel free.

[ebw]

I feel pretty dissociated, like nothing's real.

[Vivien]

Dear Estella,

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No...but feels like yes.

How is the chooser or decider felt, with which of the 5 senses?
Can a chooser or decider be felt at all, or is this just a thought believed?

Perception still happens through the veil of thought.
I find myself caught up in stories until I remember to keep my attention on the present.
Maybe there is still something I'm believing keeping me from totally letting go.

So you are after a state! Liberation is not about having a state, it’s about seeing that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or govern life.

Being caught up in stories and not letting go (grasping) are the result of a lifelong conditioning.

Do you expect to go away in an instant just because seeing through the self has happened?

X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

So there is an expectation (belief) that after seeing through the illusion of the self the illusion SHOULD STOP APPEARING with no more identification with the I-thought and stories?

The illusion won’t stop, it will continue to appear, but it is seen only as an illusion, not as a ‘reality’.
Let’s say you are in a desert and there is a mirage in the distance.

Does the mirage go away just because it is seen as a mirage and not believed to be an oasis?
Or the illusion of the mirage still appears, and the only difference that it is not believed to be ‘real’?
When the mirage is seen only as an illusion, does it matter whether it is there or not?

I don't feel free.

What does this ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
What is the ‘thing’ that doesn’t feel free?

I feel pretty dissociated, like nothing's real.

How dissociation felt, with which of the 5 senses?
Can dissociated be felt at all, or is this just a thought believed?


Love, Vivien

[ebw]

The chooser/decider is just a thought believed.

For some reason even though I see no self believing hasn't stopped.

I did expect to stop grasping. To settle into knowing, rather than striving.

I guess now I'm just in the process of throwing away my conditioning actively rather than just going about life and letting it fall. I know either way it's happening on its own. But what naturally comes to me is to continue with neti neti.

Wow. I'm already there.

Not just there. I am there.

This whole time I have seen no self many times and each time it has felt like, not enough, this passes, I am looking for something permanent.

But abiding non-dual awareness is meant to be just that - abiding. So there's an incongruency there for me.

Even so now I feel no need to qualify my experience with another's descriptions of it.

No matter what goes on, nothing can take away from me the knowledge that there is no-self.

I didn't expect it to go away, but I did expect to stop seeing it as reality.

How can I even tell if I am seeing it as reality or not?

I feel disembodied, like I'm in somebody's fucked up limbo nightmare and I can't get out.

The mirage will still be there.
My issue I guess is thinking that I still believe it's real and believing those thoughts.

Not feeling free is just a thought.
There's nothing that feels not free.

Dissociation feels like all the senses are dulled. Like the intensity of everything around me has been turned down. Like I've been shrink wrapped.

[Vivien]

For some reason even though I see no self believing hasn't stopped.

I did expect to stop grasping. To settle into knowing, rather than striving.
Of course believing hasn’t stopped! Just because of seeing through of the self happened, a lifetime of conditioning won’t go away in an instance.

But abiding non-dual awareness is meant to be just that - abiding. So there's an incongruency there for me.

Dear Estella, ‘abiding non-dual awareness’ is just a story! Just the content of a thought. Where is it? This expression doesn’t point to anything! However, believing this thought and expecting something to happen is the best way to keep the seeking and thus illusion of ‘me’ going. This is just a trick!

This is IT! There is no enlightenment, there is no ‘abiding non-dual awareness’. This is IT! This moment, what is here, right now.

Once noticing of experience occurs, the actual experience is already in the past. Is this true?

No matter what ‘I’ feel like - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ want to feel like - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ think - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what has happened in the past - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter whether there is seeking or not – This is IT! Is this true?
No matter anything - This is IT! Is this true?

WHATEVER it is – This is IT!

There is NO possible way of changing it, as it is already past the moment it is thought about.
Thinking, wanting, nothing cannot change it, because it is already done and dusted. Finished.

When it is clearly seen that seeing through of the self has happened, as a next step, there are further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process. The response is then shared with other guides. They may or may not have further questions.

Once it is confirmed by other guides that seeing through the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB, who have also seen through the ‘self’. Actually, there are several groups to join.

Are you ready for the six questions?

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

Once noticing of experience occurs, the actual experience is already in the past. Is this true?

Yes.

No matter what ‘I’ feel like - This is IT! Is this true?

Yes.

No matter what ‘I’ want to feel like - This is IT! Is this true?

Yes.

No matter what ‘I’ think - This is IT! Is this true?

Yes.

No matter what has happened in the past - This is IT! Is this true?

Yes.

No matter whether there is seeking or not – This is IT! Is this true?

Yes.

No matter anything - This is IT! Is this true?

Yes.

I feel like I don't know how to relate to people. Like I don't exist. Like I'm not a person anymore, like nothing is real. These feelings are recognized as illusory, and yet they persist.

Of course, there isn't an issue with this. Everything is as it should be. It is different from everybody and I guess this experience is just clashing with my previous expectations of something magical happening when no-self was seen through.

Nothing changes.

I am ready for the six questions.

[Vivien]

Dear Estella,

I feel like I don't know how to relate to people. Like I don't exist. Like I'm not a person anymore, like nothing is real. These feelings are recognized as illusory, and yet they persist.

When our conversation ends here you’ll be invited to different FB groups where you can get ‘help’ for further deepening in this and many other areas. Of course, we can keep in touch too :)
‘I don’t know how to relate to people’ is not uncommon, I also experience/experienced this confusion sometimes.


So here are the six questions. Please answer as clearly as possible and with as much detail as needed. Don’t forget to add everyday examples from your experience for question 5.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Vivien