Question

[Tao]

Hi Allan.

Direct experience says that thought is a sensation like pain or pleasure. The idea of ‘I’ is a sensation, though it is a passing experience and is not a separate me. The body is and has sensations. Awareness is simultaneous with them as they happen. The sensations can be taken to imply a ‘someone’, though there is not a one there. When I look for who is having the sensations, there is just awareness.

Ok good.

The experience of mind and ‘I’ go round and round, back and forth, vacillating, struggling to know something. Since they are just labels they can’t do anything except appear. It doesn’t feel any different from before, except more open to look and see. The ‘I’ idea goes on but has no effect when looked at.

The struggling to know something, vacillating of the mind - Does this have to be solved? Is it a problem? For what is it a problem?

What is the experience of going round and round, back and forth? Explain it from direct experience.

I think the frustration of looking and not finding a separate self pushed, and continues to push me over. The other day I exhausted myself looking. It’s really futile so I resigned myself to see the truth of what I have heard here at LU and other places, that there is no ‘I’ and that experiences appear simultaneous with awareness. It does seem a little easier to let things flow on by, since that’s what they are doing anyway. I think opening into the depth helped to see that awareness of depth didn’t change awareness itself.

Does anything change awareness? Has awareness ever been changed, or covered up?

Focusing is a sensation like other sensations.

Ok that's clear enough.

The mind, the ‘I’ in the story believes it has control, choice, intention, will. It’s part of the story. And within the story that is defended, and a lot of activity appears, to cover up the reality that there is no self. Awareness is there anyway. There’s no I to be responsible, though the mind assumes it is responsible within the story. Example: right now the story of ‘Allan’ is efforting so hard to be responsible for ‘awakening’. This is proving as frustrating as ever. When I ask myself, “is there a me in the tension? Is there a me in the sensation? Is there a me there that can be frustrated?” there’s not a one.

Allan does what Allan does. Is there any effort in this activity? Does anything take any actual effort?

Is Allan responsible for awakening? Are you responsible for awakening?

Are you Allan?

It seems that what was supposed to happen with this process is happening so to speak, though I do not have the experience of ‘no self’, I’m not sure whether that should happen or not. It’s just the noticing that whatever arises in awareness is noticed by awareness. The things in awareness aren’t things. It really is a very subtle distinction to notice this since experience is identical to awareness, without separation. I feel like I’m fooling myself.

What is the experience of 'no-self' you're waiting to have? Can 'no-self' be an experience?

]Here are the quotes taken out of context: The hardest part of this process is to get a person out of their thoughts and into a felt sense of this. (And from another portion of the conversation): ...waking up is about no longer believing thoughts...

These are ideas that have no real validity in experience. You can't get a person out of their thoughts, because there was never a person lost in thoughts, the person is CREATED by the thoughts, so how can the person be having thoughts?

The idea that someone needs to be dragged out of their thoughts and into their body is a totally misleading idea.

The thoughts themselves are CREATING an apparent need, that was never there in the first place.

The point that you believe your thoughts, is itself just a belief. Not actually valid experience.

Then from the Gate App, There are raw experiences: hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, and tasting. There are sensations in the body (hunger, thirst, or pain). This is what we refer to as direct experience. This is the level of experience of cats, dogs, birds, and newborn babies. Then there are thoughts. Thoughts layer concepts over these raw experiences.

Again more ideas. Cats, dogs, birds, babies, do not have experience, they are ideas arising within awareness. Can you find anything outside of THIS? Even if dogs experience things, how could we ever know what level of experience that is?

Hearing, seeing, thinking, this is direct experience. Dog, cat, bird and so on are thoughts, labels or interpretations, not experiences, not real things that have experiences themselves. They are contained within experience- does this make sense?

As I understand it, going through the gate is recognition of 'no personal self'. No one is there causing or experiencing any of it. I guess I'm a bit confused about how much I should be observing. I've been attempting to observe everything, including direct experience. Is this recognition realized from seeing that there is no one there on the level of thought only, or also on the level of direct experience? And should this recognition be steady?

Do you recognize that no-one is there? Have you been able to find a 'me'? Does it matter if thoughts say otherwise?

Tao

[AWH301]

Thank you Tao! it's been a busy day and I just glanced over your reply. For whatever reason it's making me laugh. Of course, there's just one thing. I'll get back to you tomorrow. Allan - still laughing and don't even know why. I think it was the cats, dogs, birds, babies.

[Tao]

Thank you Tao! it's been a busy day and I just glanced over your reply. For whatever reason it's making me laugh. Of course, there's just one thing. I'll get back to you tomorrow. Allan - still laughing and don't even know why. I think it was the cats, dogs, birds, babies.

:) Excellent

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,

The struggling to know something, vacillating of the mind - Does this have to be solved? Is it a problem? For what is it a problem? What is the experience of going round and round, back and forth? Explain it from direct experience.

It does not need to be solved. It’s only a problem within the display of mind and has no power to alter awareness. In direct experience thoughts are going all over the place. Emotional and physical sensations, but they are just sensations. There’s no way to control them, and they have no power over awareness.

Does anything change awareness? Has awareness ever been changed, or covered up?

No. Nothing changes awareness. It’s never been covered up. It can’t even be touched.

Allan does what Allan does. Is there any effort in this activity? Does anything take any actual effort? Is Allan responsible for awakening? Are you responsible for awakening? Are you Allan?

Allan is not responsible for awakening. That’s just an idea/expectation. There’s a label ‘Allan’ in mind, but no real, lasting thing.

What is the experience of 'no-self' you're waiting to have? Can 'no-self' be an experience?

This is just an expectation, from stories I’ve read and from an idea in mind about what ‘no-self’ is. I actually have no idea what the experience of ‘no self’ would be. It cannot be an experience as that would imply a separate ‘no self’ to be experienced apart from awareness. ‘No self’ is just another label.

The point that you believe your thoughts, is itself just a belief. Not actually valid experience.

Yes. Now that you point it out, I see this is another belief to look at.

Can you find anything outside of THIS? Even if dogs experience things, how could we ever know what level of experience that is? Dog, cat, bird and so on are thoughts, labels or interpretations, not experiences, not real things that have experiences themselves. They are contained within experience- does this make sense?

Yes. It makes sense. There’s no way to go outside to see. There’s no outside, and no inside. And yes, it’s clear that there’s no way to know what the experience of dogs are. The mind interprets what that is so that is just another thought/belief.

Thanks,
Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan.

This is just an expectation, from stories I’ve read and from an idea in mind about what ‘no-self’ is. I actually have no idea what the experience of ‘no self’ would be. It cannot be an experience as that would imply a separate ‘no self’ to be experienced apart from awareness. ‘No self’ is just another label.

Excellent. Exactly.

Yes. Now that you point it out, I see this is another belief to look at.

Do you get lost in thoughts? It certainly appears that way, but when you look, it is just another assumption.

Awareness has no experience of unawareness.

Yes. It makes sense. There’s no way to go outside to see. There’s no outside, and no inside. And yes, it’s clear that there’s no way to know what the experience of dogs are. The mind interprets what that is so that is just another thought/belief.

Yes nice explaining.

So is it clear now what you are?

What you are cannot be named or labelled as a 'thing'. It cannot be pinned down by thoughts. In fact it sends thoughts into a frenzy because you can't be found, but at the same time you are undeniable, knowing/experiencing/awareness is undeniable. THIS IS.

Is there anything in direct experience that you are not?

Do you have anything to add at this stage?

Tao

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,

Do you get lost in thoughts? It certainly appears that way, but when you look, it is just another assumption.

Yes, it seems like I get lost in thoughts, but that is just a thought itself. When I stay in direct experience there is just the present moment as it is.

So is it clear now what you are?

This is where I am at the moment: In order to be clear, I am using enquiry/looking for a separate self. I look to see if my present thoughts, sensation, emotions are ‘me’ or ‘mine’, and whether I’m causing them or can stop them. I use the same process with awareness. Is it ‘me’, or ‘mine’. This leads to the recognition that the present circumstances are just happening with no doer. The recognition does not seem automatic (yet), but I need to engage the looking.

Is there anything in direct experience that you are not?

I hadn’t looked at it like that. My approach has been noticing that there is no separate self to be found, and noticing that there is no presumption to be made about whether the circumstances are me, or not, that they just are.

Do you have anything to add at this stage?

It’s not the experience of unity that I had in mind when I started, but that expectation is another idea or label. There’s no special experience of separation or unity to be found in this investigation. I'm glad to have seen what I've seen so far. Without this process I would not have noticed how simple and obvious it is.

Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan,

Ok so i don't have any more pointers for you, I feel you see what is required. The realisation is simple and directly obvious. Despite the illusion that thoughts seem to create, there is no separate 'me'. SEEing this clearly in experience doesn't stop the illusion from continuing as it does, it does however pull the plug out of the 'believing'. It is the beginning of the end of the dream of separation.

I feel you are ready for the final questions. I have already asked you them in various ways but I would like you to answer them again from how you currently see things. I can then put your answers forward to other guides who can root out any sticking areas that may need looking at, and to finally confirm you as having seen enough. That will then enable you to join other groups if you so wish, including the LU aftercare team to help clear up any more questions or confusion. So long as you still feel and perceive yourself to be a separate 'me' for some or most of the time, then there is cause to investigate it. It is not possible to un-see what has already been seen. You may find the unfolding process develops a momentum all of it's very own.

So here they are, in your own time, please answer from direct experience as always:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Tao

[AWH301]

Thanks Tao, There's definitely something going on. Last night I went to bed feeling like nothing was going on. This morning I woke up and everything was absolutely nuclear. I feel like a magnifying glass, or amplifier of some type. Everything has been super subjective today. Really uncomfortable at times. I just took a rest which was some relief. We have friends coming over, so I will go over the questions either later tonight or tomorrow morning and get back to you. I don't want to rush through them. Right now the aftercare team and groups sound like a good idea.
Allan

[Tao]

Thanks Tao, There's definitely something going on. Last night I went to bed feeling like nothing was going on. This morning I woke up and everything was absolutely nuclear. I feel like a magnifying glass, or amplifier of some type. Everything has been super subjective today. Really uncomfortable at times. I just took a rest which was some relief. We have friends coming over, so I will go over the questions either later tonight or tomorrow morning and get back to you. I don't want to rush through them. Right now the aftercare team and groups sound like a good idea.
Allan

Hi Allan

Yes definitely, answer the final questions whenever you are ready, one at a time if you wish, there is no rush here.

Tao

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,

Here are the first 3.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. All ideas and beliefs of a separate ‘self’, ‘me’, ‘I’ are just appearances.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is an appearance in awareness. It has no cause. It starts when the idea is believed to be true and is held to be real. Once believed the various sensations are then taken as real and to belong to the ‘I’ label. The sensation and beliefs appear to reinforce each other. The ‘I’ also believes itself to be the doer of things. However, none of this is under the control of ‘I’, and the circumstances appear and shift and are not predictable by ‘I’ or awareness. They are spontaneous.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

As I notice this right now, there is a mild feeling of freedom noticing that thoughts/beliefs are not real, and that I can choose to examine the beliefs at any time. When I notice thoughts or sensations, I look to see if they are real and lasting, or if they have the power I believe they do.

The difference from before, well, right now I’m feeling hot with the fire of the process. I’m starting to recognize what was confusing me before. Yesterday I woke up into a sense of being very open and feeling very vulnerable while driving around in the heavy traffic where I live, and walking around crowded stores. Later I used the Gate App page about the birds flying over the lake. This beautiful metaphor reflected the recognition of seamlessness that I’m coming to understand, and the effortlessness of appearances and causelessness as well. I’ve been noticing how I buy into thoughts and beliefs and start to believe them, but the noticing and looking allow them to flow on by.
Allan

[AWH301]

Hi Tao, here are the last 3.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Understanding that awareness is simultaneous with appearances. I had been looking into the deep and all over for either ‘I’ or ‘no self’ and understood that awareness is always coincident with sensations, thoughts and feelings including ‘depth’.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

It only appears that these are coming to mind and then happening. If nothing in the world was caused by me, including my own life, how could decisions, choice, control be caused by me. If ‘I’ is a label or idea, it can take no action or make a decision. But decisions happen, intention appears, free will appears, choice and control seem to happen, but there is no one doing it. Example: A moment ago I was feeling hot, so I opened my office window. Now I want to close the window because I feel cold. When I look closely, there is no ‘I’ to make a decision. Images appear that correspond to closing or opening a window. Still the decision appears to be made and the body closes the window.

6) Anything to add?

I don’t have anything else to add at this point.

[Tao]

Hi Allan,

Thank you for your answers,

Just a few areas i'd like to check before I put your answers forward.

The illusion of separate self is an appearance in awareness. It has no cause. It starts when the idea is believed to be true and is held to be real.

What exactly is happening here? What is holding or believing the idea? Please explain.

As I notice this right now, there is a mild feeling of freedom noticing that thoughts/beliefs are not real, and that I can choose to examine the beliefs at any time.

Obviously I can see what you are saying here, but is examining beliefs a choice that you make? Do you have any say over which thoughts get 'believed' and which thoughts get examined?

It only appears that these are coming to mind and then happening. If nothing in the world was caused by me, including my own life, how could decisions, choice, control be caused by me. If ‘I’ is a label or idea, it can take no action or make a decision. But decisions happen, intention appears, free will appears, choice and control seem to happen, but there is no one doing it. Example: A moment ago I was feeling hot, so I opened my office window. Now I want to close the window because I feel cold. When I look closely, there is no ‘I’ to make a decision. Images appear that correspond to closing or opening a window. Still the decision appears to be made and the body closes the window.

So is it even a decision, or just a set of unfolding events? Decision would imply there is a decider. 'Decision' is a concept, based entirely on the idea of a 'me'.

How have things been today?

Tao

[AWH301]

Thanks Tao, I'll get back to you with my responses. Things are going well this week.
Allan

[AWH301]

Hi Tao, response to first question:

What exactly is happening here? What is holding or believing the idea? Please explain.

From direct looking there is no holding or believing. The story includes ideas that things were learned in childhood and taken to be real on that basis.

It’s very slippery since there is no separation between the ideas and labels and what’s looking. When I say things like “..there is no holding or believing”, it seems like I’m faking it. It’s very easy to slip into the ideas. It seems like being the looking should be more clear. It is literally second by second to look and see what’s true.

Allan

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,
Response #2:

Obviously I can see what you are saying here, but is examining beliefs a choice that you make? Do you have any say over which thoughts get 'believed' and which thoughts get examined?

I feel like I’m tossed into a world in which nothing is certain and nothing is under control, except that experience is appearing and that I am looking and seeing. I’ve heard that over and over and not just from LU. I understand that even my statement just now about nothing being certain is in question about who would think that if it were possible. I feel like the only thing I can say now is that I joined the Gate to participate to the best of my ability even though I feel less clear much of the time and very clear other times. Certainly the desire is there, and the intensity to continue has increased.

It’s obvious that no one is in control. The display of everything is too large and varied to be under anyone’s control. At the same time, the appearance of mind assumes control over the limited life. The 'no control', awareness and the assumption of being in control are simultaneous and appearing as one, and no one and nothing is causing it. There’s no actual time in it. The story creates it.

Sorry to seem so unclear. I feel like it keeps getting more slippery. Being as honest as possible seems to help.

Thank you so much for your assistance!

Allan