Thread for Elmas

All threads where seeing happens are stored here. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
You are welcome to continue your conversation with your guide here after your name is turned blue.
User avatar
Dava
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 am

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:08 pm

when I turn more fully towards the discomfort and surrender there isn't a problem or ownership, just an unpleasant experience
Does this unpleasant experience happen to an "I" that is separate from the experience,
or is there just experiencing?
Today I gave a few people sitting on the streets, begging, a little bit of money. If there was no "me" at all, in any way, how did the money end up in their hands or containers?
When you moved your arm and performed other actions as part of the previous investigation, you reported that you were unable to find a "mover" or "actor" responsible for moving (or acting) in Direct Experience.

Was giving the money to these people not also an action?

Was there a "giver" separate from giving?

User avatar
Elmas
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:11 pm

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:34 am

By Direct Experience we mean whatever can be directly perceived, which basically falls into the category of anything that appears through the 5 senses, and also thoughts.
This is as opposed to stories, interpretations, theories, speculation, ie being carried along in thought.
I've come off the boil somewhat...I need to remind myself of your earlier clarification...
"when I turn more fully towards the discomfort and surrender there isn't a problem or ownership, just an unpleasant experience"


Does this unpleasant experience happen to an "I" that is separate from the experience,
or is there just experiencing?
I'm now turning to unpleasant sensations in the body, my lower back, to investigate your questions...at the level of Direct Experience, direct sensing, the notion of an "I" doesn't arise. There's just unpleasant experiencing.......I'll try this with pleasure too and see what happens... my cheeks pleasurable, light, soft, relaxed...in Direct Experience, there's just pleasant experiencing.
When you moved your arm and performed other actions as part of the previous investigation, you reported that you were unable to find a "mover" or "actor" responsible for moving (or acting) in Direct Experience.
You don't miss much! :) Good point!
Was giving the money to these people not also an action?

Was there a "giver" separate from giving?
Yes, it was a series of actions....In Direct Experience (without buying stories, theories etc.) there can be no separate doer or "I". I don't think it's possible for a "giver" to be separate from giving.

User avatar
Dava
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 am

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:27 pm

"By Direct Experience we mean whatever can be directly perceived, which basically falls into the category of anything that appears through the 5 senses, and also thoughts.
This is as opposed to stories, interpretations, theories, speculation, ie being carried along in thought."

I've come off the boil somewhat...I need to remind myself of your earlier clarification...
You're doing just fine, and if you stay in touch with this clarification, you can't go wrong.


So, a bit of clarifying.

Through the investigation so far, has there been a separate "I" or "self" located in Direct Experience?

Is there a perceiver separate from perceiving?

Is there a thinker separate from thinking?

Is there a doer separate from doing?


Don't tell me what you think, tell me what is seen.

User avatar
Elmas
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:11 pm

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:38 am

"By Direct Experience we mean whatever can be directly perceived, which basically falls into the category of anything that appears through the 5 senses, and also thoughts.
This is as opposed to stories, interpretations, theories, speculation, ie being carried along in thought."

I've come off the boil somewhat...I need to remind myself of your earlier clarification...


You're doing just fine, and if you stay in touch with this clarification, you can't go wrong.


So, a bit of clarifying.

Through the investigation so far, has there been a separate "I" or "self" located in Direct Experience?
You only want me to tell you what is seen, Ok I'll do my best. In (innocent) Direct Experience I can not find a separate "I".
Is there a perceiver separate from perceiving?
I'm not fully sure what perceive means here (I have checked a dictionary!) I'll take it to mean 'seer' & 'seen' (correct me if I'm wrong.) This is quite easy to report...in Direct Experience of seeing just seeing is found.
Is there a thinker separate from thinking?
This one feels more challenging again! Dava, I'm going all blank and blocked again! I sought to look into this question for 10-20 minutes! What is seen/found?? All I can truthfully say is that when thinking is taking place, the notion of a 'thinker' doesn't arise.
Is there a doer separate from doing?

Don't tell me what you think, tell me what is seen.
I've just got up walked a bit, touched the wall, picked up a mug, I don't see doer in Direct Experience.

User avatar
Dava
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 am

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:16 pm

Okay, I'm going to ask you to try one more investigation, looking at a slightly more subtle aspect of acting or doing.

We're looking at the process of choice or decision.

Try this:

Take 2 different coloured pens (or pencils) and a piece of paper.

I want you to count down 3,2,1 and when you get to 0 pick up one of the pens and write your name on the paper.

Throughout this process, is there a point at which a "chooser" or "decider" arises and makes a choice of pen?

How does choosing or deciding happen?

Repeat this as many times as necessary in order to see what is.
You can do the exercise with other things (choosing coffee or tea, an apple or orange etc)

User avatar
Elmas
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:11 pm

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:33 am

"By Direct Experience we mean whatever can be directly perceived, which basically falls into the category of anything that appears through the 5 senses, and also thoughts.
This is as opposed to stories, interpretations, theories, speculation, ie being carried along in thought."
Why did you italicise the word 'basically' in your original clarification above?

We're looking at the process of choice or decision.

Try this:

Take 2 different coloured pens (or pencils) and a piece of paper.

I want you to count down 3,2,1 and when you get to 0 pick up one of the pens and write your name on the paper.

Throughout this process, is there a point at which a "chooser" or "decider" arises and makes a choice of pen?
I picked an orange and a red pen, and did the exercise 13 times, strangely I couldn't identify an exact point when choosing happened.
How does choosing or deciding happen?

Repeat this as many times as necessary in order to see what is.
I did it another 5 times and became aware of 2 sides of my personality! If you had asked me to choose from 4 pens, or 10 pens, I dread to think what would have happened!! :) When I chose the red pen I was aware of being motivated by pleasure and desire, it looks elegant and I enjoy holding and writing with it. When I chose the orange pen that I don't much like the look of I chose it because I felt a bit sorry for it and didn't want it to feel left out!! But somehow I have a feeling that I haven't got a point your were seeking to elicit.

User avatar
Dava
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 am

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:35 am

Why did you italicise the word 'basically' in your original clarification above?
No great reason that I can recall, other than to place a stress on the basic nature of the definition (there ya go, I did it again), and in doing so the basic nature of Direct Experience. If you are a non-native English speaker then you may have identified such a convention of grammar as, well, unconventional.

Onwards!
I did it another 5 times and became aware of 2 sides of my personality! If you had asked me to choose from 4 pens, or 10 pens, I dread to think what would have happened!! :) When I chose the red pen I was aware of being motivated by pleasure and desire, it looks elegant and I enjoy holding and writing with it. When I chose the orange pen that I don't much like the look of I chose it because I felt a bit sorry for it and didn't want it to feel left out!! But somehow I have a feeling that I haven't got a point your were seeking to elicit.
Is this a Direct Experience of a "chooser" or is there some interpretation going on?

Something like;

1. Thoughts about choosing a particular pen ("this looks elegant" or "this looks lonely" etc)
2. Pen is picked up.
3. Thoughts assuming a link between 1 and 2



If you had 10 pens and experienced a "tyranny of choice", where would the drama take place?
Would this actually have anything to do with the pen that was picked up in the end?
I picked an orange and a red pen, and did the exercise 13 times, strangely I couldn't identify an exact point when choosing happened.
Is there any point at which choosing can be said to happen?

User avatar
Elmas
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:11 pm

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:11 am

Hi Dava,

Just to say I have got your last post. I am back on the boil, I seem to be 'lower down' in my experience, at least at the moment. I will give your post a proper response before 7pm GMT on Sunday.

I hope you are healthy, well and marvelling.

Metta

E

User avatar
Elmas
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:11 pm

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:03 am

My sleep patterns have gone to pot since starting this process with you, I'm responding much earlier than I guessed, basically in the middle of the night!
"By Direct Experience we mean whatever can be directly perceived, which basically falls into the category of anything that appears through the 5 senses, and also thoughts.
This is as opposed to stories, interpretations, theories, speculation, ie being carried along in thought."
"No great reason that I can recall, other than to place a stress on the basic nature of the definition (there ya go, I did it again), and in doing so the basic nature of Direct Experience. If you are a non-native English speaker then you may have identified such a convention of grammar as, well, unconventional."
Good that I asked as I had made a wrong assumption.
"I did it another 5 times and became aware of 2 sides of my personality! If you had asked me to choose from 4 pens, or 10 pens, I dread to think what would have happened!! :) When I chose the red pen I was aware of being motivated by pleasure and desire, it looks elegant and I enjoy holding and writing with it. When I chose the orange pen that I don't much like the look of I chose it because I felt a bit sorry for it and didn't want it to feel left out!! But somehow I have a feeling that I haven't got a point your were seeking to elicit."


Is this a Direct Experience of a "chooser" or is there some interpretation going on?

Something like;

1. Thoughts about choosing a particular pen ("this looks elegant" or "this looks lonely" etc)
2. Pen is picked up.
3. Thoughts assuming a link between 1 and 2
I keep on needing to remind myself of what 'Direct Experience' is refering to. Definitely there is some interpretation going on and projection going on. Either I have remarkable powers of empathy with inanimate objects or I'm making up stories!! :) (Or maybe both are true!!) This is true for the 'lonely' pen but I can not say that with regard to the red pen that it was a "thought" of elegance, it was more the nature of an immediate response to visual beauty, a mild form of fascination. But I'm playing the 3,2,1 game again just with picking up the pens...this time I seem to have a different experience, beneath, below or before theories and interpretations, there was just picking up of a pen, with no dramas.
If you had 10 pens and experienced a "tyranny of choice", where would the drama take place?
Would this actually have anything to do with the pen that was picked up in the end?
Well, I don't think any of the 10 pens would get into a tizz!! :)) The drama takes place in the mind through thoughts and emotions. Every pen is innocent :) Thank you for not asking me to do the excerice with 10 pens, that's merciful of you :)
"I picked an orange and a red pen, and did the exercise 13 times, strangely I couldn't identify an exact point when choosing happened."


Is there any point at which choosing can be said to happen?
Ok, I'll try again and tell you what I find....how very strange, I picked up a pen maybe 10-12 times and couldn't find a point when choosing happened! Isn't that weird?

User avatar
Dava
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 am

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:08 am

But I'm playing the 3,2,1 game again just with picking up the pens...this time I seem to have a different experience, beneath, below or before theories and interpretations, there was just picking up of a pen, with no dramas.
So did you find a "chooser" that is responsible for picking up the pen?

In Direct Experience, is there an "I" that chooses to do this or that in order for things to happen?
Ok, I'll try again and tell you what I find....how very strange, I picked up a pen maybe 10-12 times and couldn't find a point when choosing happened! Isn't that weird?
Mysterious. ^_^

User avatar
Elmas
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:11 pm

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:34 pm

"By Direct Experience we mean whatever can be directly perceived, which basically falls into the category of anything that appears through the 5 senses, and also thoughts.
This is as opposed to stories, interpretations, theories, speculation, ie being carried along in thought."
So did you find a "chooser" that is responsible for picking up the pen?
In Direct Experience I did not find a "chooser" that was responsible for picking up the pen.
In Direct Experience, is there an "I" that chooses to do this or that in order for things to happen?
It seems incredible and I'm still left wondering. It looks like the answer is no. But Dava can we work on this more, can you set me 1 or 2 more exercises.

(I'm about to go on a 4 day holiday but will have access to the internet so I should be able to keep up with daily postings.

kind wishes

e

User avatar
Dava
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 am

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:49 pm

Hi Elmas,
It seems incredible and I'm still left wondering. It looks like the answer is no. But Dava can we work on this more, can you set me 1 or 2 more exercises.
What is it that is "still left wondering"?
What is "wondering" in Direct Experience?

(bon voyage!)

User avatar
Dava
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 am

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:07 pm

An additional reflection / question;

Imagine I were a small child, plagued night after night by the fear of an unknown entity that we can call the bogeyman.
After being woken up by my screams for several nights running, you decide to perform a thorough search of my bedroom with me, to see if the bogeyman is anywhere to be seen.
After repeating this for several nights running, just to be sure, it is clear that there is nothing found that we could call a bogeyman in any way shape or form.
You ask me if we found one and I answer "no...but I'm still wondering if there is one".

What would you say to me?

User avatar
Elmas
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:11 pm

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:51 am

It seems incredible and I'm still left wondering. It looks like the answer is no. But Dava can we work on this more, can you set me 1 or 2 more exercises.


What is it that is "still left wondering"?
What is "wondering" in Direct Experience?
It seems that I used language too vaguely or didn't communicate fully and maybe as a result I was misunderstood by you. The 'wondering' bit was about ethics and personal responsibility really. The exercise was about picking up a pen which is a simple and uncomplicated exercise about choosing (you didn't ask me to choose between telling a lie or not telling a lie for example) and I was wondering and felt uneasy about how this relates to personal responsibility and choice when in comes to ethics, actions that harm life and actions that support life and spiritual growth. (I touched on this in a PM.) I'm also wondering if we might be able to usefully distinguish between the wonder, the mystery, the innocence of Direct Experience and (what did you call it?) secondary experience for practical, psychological purposes.

Anyway, let me try to turn to your question in Direct Experience. "Wondering" in Direct Experience? Right now there isn't really 'wondering' in Direct Experience, there's mild awareness of extra palpitations around my heart area that's uncomfortable; soft cheeks; some anxiety in the heart area; anger came and went; and some sadness in the cheeks and head.

User avatar
Elmas
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:11 pm

Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:56 am

An additional reflection / question;

Imagine I were a small child, plagued night after night by the fear of an unknown entity that we can call the bogeyman.
After being woken up by my screams for several nights running, you decide to perform a thorough search of my bedroom with me, to see if the bogeyman is anywhere to be seen.
After repeating this for several nights running, just to be sure, it is clear that there is nothing found that we could call a bogeyman in any way shape or form.
You ask me if we found one and I answer "no...but I'm still wondering if there is one".

What would you say to me?
Do let me know if you'd still like me to answer this in the light of what I wrote in my last post.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 184 guests