Guide please

[Vivien]

I have seen no self and know it to be the truth in theory, but this does not stick for me. There is so much dissonance.

No worries, this is what we are going to work on :)

So I wrote the thoughts that came up for me in response to your questions, not what I have experienced before or know in theory about no self.

Yes, good. Please always answer from the current moment, what sounds the TRUEST at this moment. This is the only way I can help to point you where to look.

That past seeing is gone. That was a state and as all states it’s subject to change. So it doesn’t matter what happened previously, what matters only what can be seen here, right now, in this moment.

Now we try to find the ‘owner’ of the body.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.

But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.

This sticks for me. The idea that there is a possibility of a self/soul/machine man running the show in there. If life is a dream, then anything is possible, and so is that - so I can't see no self as certain, not beyond my mind's understanding.

In memories, and now, I look and see no I. The only thing suggesting an I is a sense of being alive, seeing through the vantage point of "my" eyes (although there have been times when I have dissociated and seen myself from out of my body), operating as though there is an "I" who is "me", and the assumption that there is an "I" putting these together and perpetuating the same idea about my experience.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

I have not found anything seeing.
I do not see a seer.
The thing seeing these words on this page is the body that is also writing this response.

[Vivien]

The idea that there is a possibility of a self/soul/machine man running the show in there.

This is just an idea, an unexamined assumption.

Where is this self/soul/machine exactly?
How is this self/soul/machine is experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

The only thing suggesting an I is a sense of being alive, seeing through the vantage point of "my" eyes

When seeing happens, how is it known that the eyes see?

Are there eyes in the actual experience that are doing the seeing, or are there only seeing with simultaneously arising mental images ‘of the eyes’ with thoughts interpreting it “seeing happens by the eyes”?

The thing seeing these words on this page is the body that is also writing this response.

How is this known that the body is doing the seeing?

In the actual experience is there a body doing the seeing, or there is only seeing with simultaneously arising mental images ‘of the body’ with thoughts interpreting it “seeing happens by the body”?

Are ‘you’ the body or ‘you’ have a body?

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

Where is this self/soul/machine exactly?
How is this self/soul/machine is experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

I don't know. I can't find it through any of my senses.

Also, I noticed something the other day. I once perceived some of my thoughts as "mine" and some of my thoughts as "not mine". Examining this further, I saw that the thoughts I perceived as "mine" were simply in alignment with the idea of me, whereas the ones that were "not mine" were incongruous with the idea of me. Usually the ones I saw as "not mine" would be negative and the ones I saw as "mine" would be positive.

When seeing happens, how is it known that the eyes see? Are there eyes in the actual experience that are doing the seeing, or are there only seeing with simultaneously arising mental images ‘of the eyes’ with thoughts interpreting it “seeing happens by the eyes”?

In order to see something clearer, I move my eyes closer to it. To see something to the left of me, I move my eyes in that direction, and so on. This way, seeing is connected with the eyes.

How is this known that the body is doing the seeing?

Same as above. Body contains these eyes. Sights are seen from vantage point of body.

In the actual experience is there a body doing the seeing, or there is only seeing with simultaneously arising mental images ‘of the body’ with thoughts interpreting it “seeing happens by the body”?

In actual experience there is only seeing.

Are ‘you’ the body or ‘you’ have a body?

'I' have a body.

[Vivien]

Dear Estella,

Vivien: When seeing happens, how is it known that the eyes see? Are there eyes in the actual experience that are doing the seeing, or are there only seeing with simultaneously arising mental images ‘of the eyes’ with thoughts interpreting it “seeing happens by the eyes”?
Estella: In order to see something clearer, I move my eye

s closer to it. To see something to the left of me, I move my eyes in that direction, and so on. This way, seeing is connected with the eyes.

This is nothing more than the content of thought that is not seen only as a thought, but rather being lost in its content happens (meaning believed).
What I ask you to do is to ignore what thoughts suggest and go directly to the actual experience that is happening here and now.

Are there eyes in the actual experience that are doing the seeing, or are there only seeing with simultaneously arising mental images ‘of the eyes’ with thoughts interpreting it “seeing happens by the eyes”?

Are ‘you’ the body or ‘you’ have a body?

'I' have a body.

Then find this ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look for it everywhere, don’t leave any stone unturned. Similarly, as if you were searching for Darth Vader.

Where is this ‘I’ exactly that supposedly owns the body?

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

There is only seeing.

I can't find any "I".

[Vivien]

There is only seeing.
I can't find any "I".

Good.

You’ve missed the other question.

Are ‘you’ the body or ‘you’ have a body?

'I' have a body.

Then find this ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look for it everywhere, don’t leave any stone unturned. Similarly, as if you were searching for Darth Vader.

Where is this ‘I’ exactly that supposedly owns the body?

[ebw]

"I can't find any 'I'" was my response to the other question.

[Vivien]

"I can't find any 'I'" was my response to the other question.

All right :)

Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts now. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Take your time.

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

Where thoughts come from?

Nowhere.

Where are they going?

I don't know. They disappear.

Can 'you' stop a thought in the middle?

Sometimes.

Can 'you' predict what will be the next thought?

No.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Yes, by raising the vibration of my thoughts by thinking happier thoughts.

Can an 'I' be found that generates the thoughts?

No. Although I cannot get over that my eyes are seeing. Seeing only happens from the vantage point of my eyes from my experience. So 'I' am stuck in this body, so there must be an 'I'. Even if one can't be found.

'I' think - what is I? What is the one that thinks?

I don't know. It's a mystery.

What is the thinker of thoughts?

I don't know. Supposedly the I that sees.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience?

No.

Can it be found?

I don't know if it can be found but I haven't found it.

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also a thought?

It could be.

Is there an 'I' that controls the thoughts?

Not that I have seen.

Do you think thoughts or are you just being thought?

I don't understand the question.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

I don't know.

Including the thought 'I'?

I don't know.

[Vivien]

Dear Estella,

Vivien: Can 'you' stop a thought in the middle?

Estella: Sometimes.

Are you sure about this? Are you doing the stopping of thoughts?
Or stopping the thoughts in the middle just happens by itself, without any doer whatsoever?

Vivien: Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Estella: Yes, by raising the vibration of my thoughts by thinking happier thoughts.

Are you sure about this?
Are you doing the choosing of happier thoughts, or choosing just happens without anything doing it?

Here is an interesting exercise. Sit for at least 15 minutes. Please set a timer.

The aim of the exercise to have ONLY POSITIVE thoughts throughout the 15 minutes, without ANY SINGLE negative or neutral thoughts.

If there is a ‘you’ that could have control over thought, then you can do this easily.

Please report back how it went.
Throughout the exercise please observe how this choosing of positive thoughts happens.

Are there an infinite number of thought somewhere ‘outside’ of current experience, where you could choose from?

No. Although I cannot get over that my eyes are seeing. Seeing only happens from the vantage point of my eyes from my experience. So 'I' am stuck in this body, so there must be an 'I'. Even if one can't be found.

We will investigate this a bit later. Just one step at a time :)

Vivien: What is the thinker of thoughts?

Estella: I don't know. Supposedly the I that sees.

Please don’t just guess, and give only assumption. We are not interested in what thoughts ‘suggest’, we are interested in the actual, immediate experience PRIOR TO thoughts. So LOOK!

Vivien: Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also a thought?

Estella: It could be.

LOOK closer.
It just could be or is this the case that the ‘I’ that thinks is just a thought?

Vivien: Do you think thoughts or are you just being thought?

Estella: I don't understand the question.

In other words:
Is there a ‘you’ that is doing the thinking, or ‘you’ is just a thought among the other millions of other thoughts?

Vivien: Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Estella: I don't know.

Then look ‘harder’. Look until you can answer this. Don’t think, but look.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Vivien: Including the thought 'I'?

Estella: I don't know.

Then look ‘harder’. Look until you can answer this. Don’t think, but look.

Is it possible to prevent the I-thought from appearing?

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

From observation, stopping of thoughts in the middle happens on its own, followed by an "I" thought related to the stopping and then more thoughts of stories about the "I" and the stopping.

I sat for seven minutes. Even at the beginning it became clear that the choosing happens on its own. Positive thoughts appeared with the intention of maintaining them, and I felt agitated as though the effort involved in keeping thoughts positive was unnatural. At one point I was fastidiously thinking positive thoughts and out of no where in my mind a voice yelled "FUCK!" Also there was mind wandering and forgetting what I was doing, so thoughts turned to stories and observations. There was no controlling of this, it just happened, and I returned my focus to the exercise.

It is clear to me that positive and negative thoughts are not my own and arise out of nowhere.

I should mention also that I have stopped doing this changing of negative thoughts and even had stopped before mentioning it in my last post. I don't bother now. In looking back to that practice I can see how it's counterintuitive.

The choosing happens on its own, if there is any choosing. I don't see any. The thoughts just appear either way, with more or less energy coming with them.

I don't see anything outside of current experience. So no. There are not an infinite number of thoughts to choose from somewhere outside of experience.

The "me" is just a thought among countless other thoughts.

The "I" that thinks is just a thought. There are thoughts that say the "I" thinks, but they do not have a thinker.
So the "I" is simply a thought.

It is not possible to prevent a thought from appearing. I have no knowledge of thoughts before they appear.

It is not possible to prevent the "I" thought either. It has already happened when there is a thought to prevent it, and the intention to prevent it does not keep it from coming, but only attaches the "I" to the intention to prevent the "I" thought.

I also played with the sensations exercise, and noticed no distance between sound and hearer, sight and seer, taste and taster, touch and feeler. At first for sight it was difficult because I thought that the line dividing was where my eyes began, but I realized that sight does not end there. There is nowhere for it to end, it is just an experience. Even so I feel a little doubtful and shaky about this new realization, though I'm not sure why. Yesterday while observing thoughts I also noticed how unreliable thoughts are for reality. I had a pain and had a thought about it, which didn't seem plausible. The next thought about it seemed even less plausible. So I discarded trying to come to a conclusion about why the pain was there, and my attention diverted to something else and I guess the pain just dissipated sometime after that, because I did not notice it being there and only now remembered having had it, and that it is gone now.

Thank you for all your responses.

[Vivien]

Dear Estella,

You did a very good looking :)

I don't see anything outside of current experience. So no. There are not an infinite number of thoughts to choose from somewhere outside of experience.
The "me" is just a thought among countless other thoughts.
The "I" that thinks is just a thought. There are thoughts that say the "I" thinks, but they do not have a thinker.
So the "I" is simply a thought.

Very good.

I also played with the sensations exercise, and noticed no distance between sound and hearer, sight and seer, taste and taster, touch and feeler. At first for sight it was difficult because I thought that the line dividing was where my eyes began, but I realized that sight does not end there. There is nowhere for it to end, it is just an experience.

Exactly :)

I had a pain and had a thought about it, which didn't seem plausible. The next thought about it seemed even less plausible. So I discarded trying to come to a conclusion about why the pain was there, and my attention diverted to something else and I guess the pain just dissipated sometime after that, because I did not notice it being there and only now remembered having had it, and that it is gone now.

Yes! :) I wrote a blog post about pain, you may find it useful for further deepening:
http://fadingveiling.com/2014/08/18/is- ... suffering/

Let we examine control a bit more.

Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling ‘thing’ be located?

What moves the arm?

What is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find the ‘thing’ that is doing the choosing?

How the decision is made which arm to raise?
How the decision is made when to raise the arm?

Love, Vivien

[ebw]

I love your article. It's very relevant to me actually because I am in the healing process from scoliosis - my spine is straight for the first time in over a decade, since it developed for me, and for a long time I had a core fear of being trapped in pain or discomfort forever because I thought I would be living with scoliosis and it's very painful. Even now when pain comes up for me sometimes I feel in my reaction to it echoes of that fear, though over time it is ebbing away.

What is controlling the arm?

Nothing that I can see so...nothing.
Even the decision to move the arm happens automatically, I see no decision maker and no mover.

Can a controlling "thing" be located?

No.

What moves the arm?

The arm moves itself.

What is choosing which arm to raise?

Nothing that I can see, so nothing. Choosing happens on its own. Choosing, chooser and choice are one.

Can you find the "thing" that is doing the choosing?

No. There is nothing/no thing.

How the decision is made which arm to raise?

It is made automatically. Thoughts come after.

How the decision is made when to raise the arm?

Same as above. It is made on its own. Thoughts about it come after, though it is already done.

I have felt recently that more and more the veil is peeling away. I have thoughts full of terror that say "I don't know who I am", which I see as a good sign. I also was doing something on the computer yesterday and happened to look at my email, which has my name in it, and felt genuine surprise, a sort of sense of distance from my name like I had forgotten that I had one and even that I existed.

Thank you for your responses.

[Vivien]

I love your article. It's very relevant to me actually because I am in the healing process from scoliosis - my spine is straight for the first time in over a decade, since it developed for me, and for a long time I had a core fear of being trapped in pain or discomfort forever because I thought I would be living with scoliosis and it's very painful. Even now when pain comes up for me sometimes I feel in my reaction to it echoes of that fear, though over time it is ebbing away.

When pain comes up next time, you can observe how the illusion of its continuity created.

Nothing that I can see, so nothing. Choosing happens on its own. Choosing, chooser and choice are one.

Very good observation.

I have felt recently that more and more the veil is peeling away. I have thoughts full of terror that say "I don't know who I am", which I see as a good sign.

Fear is just a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. It highlights that there is a story there about pain or negative consequences to this investigation.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear as it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?

Love, Vivien