Ready for Awakening!!!

[yic17]

‘The mind is still having some doubts, the mind does not feel free…’. Bring this back to this moment and stay with your direct experience, how would you describe the mind? Is it some entity, some container of thoughts? What is its reality? Is it just the current thought?

Okay. So it's just another thought. The thought that there is a source/container where thoughts appear.

‘It thinks maybe there is something that I’m just not seeing yet’: ’It’ = the mind? See above, what is ‘the mind’? A thought? Can a thought think?

Right, "it" doesn't think. There are just thoughts/doubts about if I am really seeing it. If this is it. Or thought of the possibility that there could be something I'm just unaware of. And thoughts/doubts about if this really is not just another belief or just another perspective to look at things.

You said earlier that ‘I’ is only an illusion, so what is that ‘I’ that could be missing something? A fictitious character in a thought popping up?

Yeah, the illusion "I" cannot be missing anything. It's just a thought/idea. But as I said above, thoughts of doubts are still arising.

Thanks.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

But as I said above, thoughts of doubts are still arising.

Yes, and they will most probably continue to do so, at least for a while. Rome was not built in a day, so why should it be unbuilt in a day? Such doubts come up, they get investigated, seen as thoughts/ideas, and move on. This is why, as I was telling you earlier, we have LU support groups for post-gate, where such residual thoughts can be questioned with the help of others.
Would it be ok if such thoughts continued to come and go, like clouds in the sky, like trains in a station? Who needs to board the train?

Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

Would it be ok if such thoughts continued to come and go, like clouds in the sky, like trains in a station? Who needs to board the train?

Sure. It would be okay.

[Freddi]

And thoughts/doubts about if this really is not just another belief or just another perspective to look at things.

Would you like to explore this together?
In our lives, we have often abdicated what is our only way to check and verify what is actually here, our first-hand experience, and overridden it with stuff that we have been told, we’ve heard etc, right from childhood. As a result we end up looking at what is not with our eyes, but through thoughts.
The questions to consider are:
Is the absence of ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘self’ a verifiable fact or is it a belief?
Have you checked for yourself or have you taken someone else’s word for it? It’s that simple.
Then you could ask yourself what is a belief?

Stay with these a while, let them percolate and SEE what’s true for you, right here and now.

Thanks!

[yic17]

Hi Fred.

Would you like to explore this together?

Sure. I was planning to ask you if we were going to ignore examining these doubts. =)

Is the absence of ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘self’ a verifiable fact or is it a belief? 
Have you checked for yourself or have you taken someone else’s word for it? It’s that simple.

Sure, I checked and I SEE that it only exists as a thought/belief.

Then you could ask yourself what is a belief?

 

A belief is a thought/idea that I have assumed to be true without questioning.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan

Thank you again for your willingness and honesty.

Are there any other doubts or issues you would like to bring up at this stage?

Do you have any doubt that the illusion of the separate self has been seen through?

Thanks!

[yic17]

Are there any other doubts or issues you would like to bring up at this stage?

Not really. I do feel like I need some time for things to sink in deeper though.

Do you have any doubt that the illusion of the separate self has been seen through?

Nope. I can see it clearly from one perspective. There are just still thoughts of doubts saying if this is really it.

Thanks.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan

1)

I can see it clearly from one perspective

Would you like to show me the other perspective?

2)

There are just still thoughts of doubts saying if this is really it.

How do you react when such thoughts/doubts come up?

3) Let’s bring all these expectations to the table. Unpack it all, if you like.
What idea tells you that this is not it? Where does it come from?
What would be ‘it’?
What should liberation be like?

Thanks!

[yic17]

1) Would you like to show me the other perspective?

 

Nevermind. It is what it is.

2) How do you react when such thoughts/doubts come up?

Hmm … sometimes I remind myself that they're just thought contents - nothing more and then let it go. Sometimes I would tell myself that whatever comes up, comes up. It's all automatic anyway. Whatever's going to happen is going to happen either way and then let them go. Sometimes I would bring whatever doubt comes up into questioning.

3) Let’s bring all these expectations to the table. Unpack it all, if you like.

What idea tells you that this is not it? Where does it come from?

Mostly from what I read about other "enlightened" people's experiences. Such as Jed McKenna, Adyashanti, and the way some people from Gateless Gatecrashers explain their experiences once they have crossed the gate. They make it sound like it would be more "grand" I suppose. Well, not all of them. Some of them make it sound pretty plain too.

What would be ‘it’?
What should liberation be like?

There are 3 expectations (or desires) that pop up …

1. No more fears.
2. No more doubts.
3. Being able to feel everything I see around me without any distance.

After doing some examining/questioning myself, well I suppose it's silly to expect no more fears since it's just an emotion that's going to rise up whenever it does. Same with no more doubts, it's just thoughts that will rise up whenever it does. As for #3, maybe it's just a fantasy.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

Thank you again for your most honest answers.

Fred: Are there any other doubts or issues you would like to bring up at this stage?
Ivan: Not really. I do feel like I need some time for things to sink in deeper though.

Of course. As I told you earlier, sometimes the entire plot falls apart at once, and more often it falls like a line of dominoes.

At this stage I would like to ask you our usual six summing-up questions. Once we’re both happy with your answers, I will invite other guides to take a look, to make sure we’ve covered everything here. Then, if and when there are no more questions, you will be invited to join some LU post-gate groups, where you will be able to question, investigate any residual thought, persistent or not, with 'others' going through similar things.

What do you say?

Warm wishes

Fred

[yic17]

What do you say?

Sure thing. =)

[Freddi]

OK, Ivan, here are six questions.

Take your time with these, contemplate them. Always answer from direct experience. Look into what is alive, here and now. Be as detailed as you like and don’t forget examples for question 5.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

I look forward to your answers!

Warm wishes,

Fred

[yic17]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is never a separate entity. The self, me, I only exist only as a thought content/label.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

 

Self is basically a label to differentiate this body as its own entity separate from other bodies. It probably started from an early age given by my parents and other people around that point to this body as a separate entity while giving it a label "I" and a name. And through reinforcing the idea over and over, it became a belief that there is indeed a separate entity from everything else.

How it works, well, it allows this body to function in a society that uses language and labels. Just like a glass of water, without a label, you cannot point to it and say "Please hand me that glass of water." So the label helps for communication purposes in today's society.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is not much "feeling" about seeing the no self - maybe not yet. The difference now is that everything is automatic. I know thoughts arise, movements happen, emotions form all by themselves. The past few days, I suppose there were less struggling thoughts since everything is automatic. Everything is just flowing. During times when certain negative emotions or situations arise, I just reminded myself that all is automatic. Whatever is going to happen is going to happen. And it reduces the tension against the emotion and situation allowing them to pass by quickly.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

 

I believe the most significant moment was when we were examining the conscious controller. And when you asked me if I am the conscious controller and the realization that I am not it. Since that point, whenever I attach the "I" onto anything, I just remind myself "That is not me." It applies to everything. I am not a thought, I am not the source of thoughts, I am not awareness, I am not the emotions, I am not the sensations, I am not the energy … Eventually there is no more attachment.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Everything happens automatically. There is no free will. Decisions and choices happen automatically. Nothing makes them happen - they just happen. There is no "me" to be responsible of anything.

Example from experience, well, thoughts arise, emotions arise, actions/movements arise, and everything just continues to arise and fade, arise and fade … I just closed my eyes and started to breathe for a few seconds. It just happened automatically all by itself.

6) Anything to add?

Nope. Not at the moment. =)

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan

Thank you for your answers. A couple more questions from me, before I show it to other guides …

There is not much "feeling" about seeing the no self

The expression ’the no self’ seems to point to some kind of new entity, as though there is a hole or emptiness where the self was.
Would you say that there is a definite thing called ‘no self’ to be seen? Or is it more that you have not found any self, anywhere?

I just remind myself "That is not me.

Is it something you need memories for, or can you check for yourself, in direct experience, as and when it happens?

Also, for question 5, I would like you to expand a little and give me an example of an apparent decision in your everyday life. Just as we did before. It may be as simple as walking to a fridge to get a drink, or anything else you like.

Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

The expression ’the no self’ seems to point to some kind of new entity, as though there is a hole or emptiness where the self was.

Would you say that there is a definite thing called ‘no self’ to be seen? Or is it more that you have not found any self, anywhere?

Oh yeah, it's just a phrase I use - or stole from those spiritual books. There is no such entity. Just that I have not found any self anywhere.

Is it something you need memories for, or can you check for yourself, in direct experience, as and when it happens?

Memories are not necessary. I can check in direct experience without thoughts too. I suppose the thoughts "that is not me" just follows when I check.

Also, for question 5, I would like you to expand a little and give me an example of an apparent decision in your everyday life. Just as we did before. It may be as simple as walking to a fridge to get a drink, or anything else you like.

 

Okay. My head moves to the right, eyes looking at a glass of water, right hand reaches out, touches the glass of water, picks it up, moves the water toward my mouth, takes a sip. It all just happens automatically in one smooth flow. No decision was made.