Ready for Awakening!!!

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

I am not understanding you here …..

You said that experiencing the absence of self would be to just be present, experience the sensations, see thoughts come and go. I am asking you: which of these is not happening right now?

Fred: What is there to be convinced 100%?
Ivan: Just thoughts and ideas I suppose.

Go trough our conversation and see just how many times you wrote answers like this, ‘OK I suppose’.
No one is here to convince you of anything, Ivan. That would be an intellectual approach. You asked for guidance and you have guidance. All I am doing is holding up a mirror and pointing to the evidence of what is.
You see, it is a LOT simpler than looking into thought. If I ask you whether your keys are in your pocket right now, you can either hesitate and rummage through your memories of when you last saw them - or you can just put your hand in your pocket and check. It is really as simple as that.
If you want to know whether there is a self, all you have to do is check for yourself, controller or otherwise. Your mind will not give you the answer.
Show me where you see that conscious controller you assume the existence of, and we’ll take a look together.

Fred: Would now be a good time to admit and accept that WHAT IS is ALL THERE IS?
Ivan: I don't know ….. Maybe?

I’ll wait here until you come up with a heartfelt YES or NO to this question.

Thanks!

Fred

[yic17]

You said that experiencing the absence of self would be to just be present, experience the sensations, see thoughts come and go. I am asking you: which of these is not happening right now?

They're all happening right now.

If you want to know whether there is a self, all you have to do is check for yourself, controller or otherwise. Your mind will not give you the answer. Show me where you see that conscious controller you assume the existence of, and we’ll take a look together.

Okay, so there is no conscious controller. Now what?

Fred: Would now be a good time to admit and accept that WHAT IS is ALL THERE IS?
Ivan: I don't know ….. Maybe?

I’ll wait here until you come up with a heartfelt YES or NO to this question.

Okay, sure. From one perspective I can see that.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

Fred: I’ll wait here until you come up with a heartfelt YES or NO to this question.
Ivan: Okay, sure. From one perspective I can see that

Mhm I would not call that a 'heartfelt yes or no'.
From which perspective is it not seen that what is is all there is?

Fred

[yic17]

Mhm I would not call that a 'heartfelt yes or no'. 
From which perspective is it not seen that what is is all there is?

Just that I have read and heard people talking about different states they have been in so I feel like my current state may not be all there is. So I don't know if what is here now is all there is. I know this is not my direct experience. That's why my answer is "I don't know" rather than "No".

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan

Just that I have read and heard people talking about different states they have been in so I feel like my current state may not be all there is.

We’re back where we started: expectations. You have read, heard, watched other peoples’ descriptions of their own experiences and you expect the same. That gives rise a ‘not this’ thought and feeling.

As to ‘people’s testimonies about states’, what is that, but another story? Is it a special state you are looking for, or is it what is already always the case, before any state?
You can keep these stories going, and go for another turn of the hamster wheel, or you can admit that they are not real, and leave them alone. In fact, have you ever wondered why all these experiences told by 'enlightened sages' are different?

This, in turn, brings us back to where the rubber hits the road for you: the nature of thought, and your possible reliance on thought as an accurate description of reality.

If I ask you whether your keys are in your pocket right now, do you rummage through your memories of when you last saw them - or do you just put your hand in your pocket and check?

If I ask you whether you are male or female, you most probably have already checked. Do you have to think about it?

If I ask you to cross a busy junction with eyes and ears covered, and to rely only on your thoughts, would you agree to do it?

Would you like to do a few exercises, to inquire into the nature of thought together?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[yic17]

Is it a special state you are looking for, or is it what is already always the case, before any state?

I don't know actually. I am looking for liberation. You tell me what it is.

If I ask you whether your keys are in your pocket right now, do you rummage through your memories of when you last saw them - or do you just put your hand in your pocket and check?

I look at my desk because that’s where I put my keys.

If I ask you whether you are male or female, you most probably have already checked. Do you have to think about it?

 

Nope.

If I ask you to cross a busy junction with eyes and ears covered, and to rely only on your thoughts, would you agree to do it?

 

Nope.

Would you like to do a few exercises, to inquire into the nature of thought together?

 

Sure, if you feel this is right direction.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

Fred: do you just put your hand in your pocket and check?
Ivan: I look at my desk because that’s where I put my keys.

That is how you know for sure. Look around you, all the labels applied to portions of reality as perceived. Look at the word ‘table’, then the sound T-A-B-L-E. Does the word or the sound bear any resemblance to the actual four-legged thing looked at? Do this with other apparent objects in the room. And remember, LOOK, don’t THINK.
Look for a ‘me’, point to it. where is the evidence? Can you show me?

If you were in a desert, close to die of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink the ‘real’ water?
Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you too options: (1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written onto it (2) and in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose? The label or the actual water?
Could you quench your thirst with the label?
What does it say about labels? Are they real?

Thanks!

[yic17]

Look for a ‘me’, point to it. where is the evidence? Can you show me?

Yeah, I can already see that there is no evidence of a "me".

If you were in a desert, close to die of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink the ‘real’ water?

Some enlightened masters might be able to quench their thirst by thoughts but I will go for the latter.

Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you too options: (1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written onto it (2) and in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose? The label or the actual water?

I will choose the physical water.

Could you quench your thirst with the label?

Nope. I cannot.

What does it say about labels? Are they real?

No, they are not physically real. But I already know this. As we discussed earlier, we only have difference with the definition. We don't actually disagree on anything.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

Some enlightened masters might be able to quench their thirst by thought

This is exactly where we need to look now. You are relying on thought content as an accurate representation of what is.
Explore that thought: ‘Some enlightened masters might be able to quench their thirst by thought’. Bring it back to your bare experience of this moment, see if there is any evidence confirming this or if it is only hearsay. If it’s the latter, ask yourself: why am I believing it?
Look at it as you look at a label, ‘water’, ‘table’, or any story told by a thought.
Question every aspect of this:
1) Where does this unexamined assumption come from, which ‘masters’?
2) is it true?
3) Can you absolutely know that it’s true?
4) If so, how do you know that it’s true?

Take some time questioning this, a quick answer will almost certainly be a smokescreen thrown in by Mr Thinky.
And answer all the questions.
Thanks!

[yic17]

This is exactly where we need to look now. You are relying on thought content as an accurate representation of what is.
Explore that thought: ‘Some enlightened masters might be able to quench their thirst by thought’. Bring it back to your bare experience of this moment, see if there is any evidence confirming this or if it is only hearsay. If it’s the latter, ask yourself: why am I believing it?

Rather than believing it, it's more like I am open to the possibility. Are you simply going to deny all hearsay? Are you going to say everyone who claims that they have had some kind of spiritual experience are lying? That sounds very limiting to me. Like you are blocking out everything just because you are not able to experience it yourself or have not yet experienced it yourself.

And WHY am I believing it? Well, firstly I have had some spiritual experiences myself. My mom had them as well. Secondly, it just feels right to believe that not EVERYONE is lying when they claim they have had some sort of spiritual experiences. Sure, some people may just be making things up. But to me it is just very limiting to believe that what is here is all there is or all there will ever be. I am just open to the possibility that there are things beyond my present experience. Also, to say that what is is all there is, isn't it arrogant as if you are claiming you know everything there is?

Do you want me to get rid of ALL beliefs? Is this really necessary in order to drop the belief of "self"?

Look at it as you look at a label, ‘water’, ‘table’, or any story told by a thought. 
Question every aspect of this:

1) Where does this unexamined assumption come from, which ‘masters’?

I have heard stories of enlightened masters being able to do miraculous things. Though right now I do not have any name in mind. But again, rather than believing it to be true, I am simply open to the possibility that it could be true.

2) is it true?

 

I don't know. But I am open to the possibility.

3) Can you absolutely know that it’s true?

Nope.

4) If so, how do you know that it’s true?

 

I don't.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

Are you simply going to deny all hearsay?

What I am inviting you to do is not to deny anything, or to call other people liars, but simply to question beliefs.
Can anything ever be known, except for this happening, right here in this moment?
How could awakening ever be outside of this moment, right here?
I’m not asking you to deny other people’s experiences, I’m inviting you to examine, question all beliefs, all concepts, all accounts which appear to take us to somewhere outside of this moment. How can these possibly lead us to awakening? How can these take us anywhere other than down an intellectual path?

Our thinking, our language, contains many alternatives to what is happening, here and now, all acting like mini-trips into what is not happening. ’Tomorrow’, ‘next time’, ‘elsewhere’, ’I wish’, ‘if only’, ‘should’, ‘would’, ‘when I wake up’, and the list goes on and on.
These can only take us out of this single happening, the only one that we can verify.
Look at your direct experience and consider this one question: have you ever experienced an alternative to what is?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[yic17]

Hi Fred.

Look at your direct experience and consider this one question: have you ever experienced an alternative to what is?

 

Nope. That is why earlier I said from one perspective I can see this as true. =)

[Freddi]

Thanks, Ivan

So, having checked into your direct experience, what would you reply to these questions:

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Is there a ‘you’ doing this investigation or does investigation just happen?

Is there a ‘you’ who decided to come to LU and ask for a guide?

Is there a ‘you’ that can be awake or not?

Warm wishes

Fred

[yic17]

Hi Fred.

So, having checked into your direct experience, what would you reply to these questions:

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't and there wasn't ever.

Is there a ‘you’ doing this investigation or does investigation just happen?

There is no "me" doing this investigation. It's just happening.

Is there a ‘you’ who decided to come to LU and ask for a guide?

 

Nope. Only an illusory "me" in thought form. Since everything happens automatically, it just "happened".

Is there a ‘you’ that can be awake or not?

In direct experience, no.

But the mind is still having some doubts. The mind still doesn't feel free or desires a different state - something more dramatic maybe. It thinks MAYBE there is "something" that I'm just not seeing yet.

Thanks.

[Freddi]

Hi Ivan,

Fred: Is there a ‘you’ that can be awake or not?
Ivan: In direct experience, no. But the mind is still having some doubts. The mind still doesn't feel free or desires a different state - something more dramatic maybe. It thinks MAYBE there is "something" that I'm just not seeing yet

Thank you for your honesty. Let’s dig into this thought a little, and dissect it to see what, in it, may or may not be true.

‘The mind is still having some doubts, the mind does not feel free…’. Bring this back to this moment and stay with your direct experience, how would you describe the mind? Is it some entity, some container of thoughts? What is its reality? Is it just the current thought?

‘It thinks maybe there is something that I’m just not seeing yet’: ’It’ = the mind? See above, what is ‘the mind’? A thought? Can a thought think?

You said earlier that ‘I’ is only an illusion, so what is that ‘I’ that could be missing something? A fictitious character in a thought popping up?

Thanks!

Fred