Help me find out that no one is writing this

[codyjdennis]

Awesome Zak :)


So in this same light.

Where is this 'self'? Where is it besides just a thought, a concept?

[prunejuice]

It is nowhere. It is just a concept. Anywhere that I look, the last vestiges of self are disappearing. Zak still exists. Events are happening, things are being experienced, but in any dark shadow that has a light put upon it, the self isn't there.

Much has been falling away in the past few days.

[codyjdennis]

Usually at this point we ask six questions to check this out even further. Before I do so though, is there anything you would like to add? Any questions? Anything you're unclear about?

Do you feel it's seen?

If all is clear feel free to go ahead with the questions below. Take your time.

------
Here are the questions we ask... we only ask these when you have confirmed for yourself
that yes, you have seen through the illusion of self.
Let's go ahead with them... if there's anything is left to address, it will come up from your answers.

Take your time with these... there's no rush. Give each your full attention.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[prunejuice]

I feel that it has been seen. I think that up until now I had had an expectation that "seeing" would mean a shock and an immediate (permanent) state of no-mind.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

1:) I see now that anyplace that it comes up, anyplace that it seems to be real, it is always an illusion. There are still moments when attention is not at its most full and there is a wandering thought that imagines there to be a "self" thinking the thought, running the show but quickly the illusion is thrown off and the clear reality of what is is seen. These moments are fewer and farther between now. Like I said earlier, much has been falling away in these past few days. There never was a self, it was always an illusion.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

2:) The illusion of a separate self is a thought in mind attributing its own existence to a self thinking it. It begins when mind, becoming aware of a thought, identifies with it, not specifically via agreeing or disagreeing with it (though often), but usually by merely acknowledging the thoughts existence mind makes the assumption that it thought it and therefore it must be a real existent self with continuity and existence. That is how I see it from my experience. The same can be said to happen when there is acknowledgement that walking is taking place, a conversation is occurring, etc., and there is the assumption that there is a real separate self acting volitionally and "I" must be that.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

3:) It feels like it always has been. There is a feeling, along with accompanying thoughts, of relief and comfort that are experienced in the body as it is felt more fully, an awareness of a comforting guided experience that has always been there along with the clarity to see that there not even a self in that. It is all just happening.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

4:) I started looking a long time ago, and reflecting back on that time now, I see that I saw it, and knew it on some deeper more subtle level for longer than that even, maybe even forever, but I didn't have the presence of mind to know what I was actually experiencing. There had never been a direct dialog with anyone about it until now. There was only the guidance found in different texts and various golden fragments that I picked up on the path. In all my time looking, there were only a handful of times that I felt confident enough in myself, or in who I was with, to try to verbalize and inquire whether this person actually understood what I thought I had experienced and was now trying to verbalize. Either through my own inability to clarify my experience or a lack of understanding by the people I reached out to, I always felt that what I was trying to say was never fully grasped. By coming here, and having a direct conversation, the doubting part in "me" found confirmation that what I had already experienced is indeed what is.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

5:) "Decisions" happen. They occur in mind after contemplation, sometimes quickly (near instantaneously), sometimes after a more drawn out process. What occurs then sometimes matches up with what we've decided upon (or wanted) to occur, and sometimes it doesn't. What happens, happens as a result of causality. Everything affects everything else in an infinitely connected and multifaceted reality. Whether conscious of it, or not, there is intention in action. Free will, choice, volition all seem to exist in a phenomenal sense. If Zak wants to eat a hamburger for dinner, he will, if he wants a salad, he'll have that. That doesn't mean that life will always make it easy, or cooperate with the "choice". It seems that life always gives you what you need to experience, not necessarily what you want. In any of this, for the sake of peace and harmony, it seems like the most wise choice is to remain flexible and bend and flow with what you intuit life to be dictating and to realize that there is no self in any of it. All of those feelings or experiences of a supposed "self" making choices, planning, reacting, are all just vibrations occurring in mind being interpreted by another vibration in mind. Through all of it, there is witnessing or awareness. Even the observation of the awareness, a self watching a "self" is not real. All that is is life, a reality of no-thing that is everything and at the same time a reality of everything that is no-thing.

Anything to add?

6:) I had always expected the shock of realization would be so jarring that it would be impossible to identify or get caught in the self again. That if I had truly seen it, I could never be mistaken by the illusion again. I have to imagine that eventually there is nothing more to fall away, no where else for the "self" to hide and take refuge....I want to say what then but I don't even know what that would mean. I know that I've read in the FAQ that liberation unleashed is not about eradicating the self. I understand that it will always "exist". I want to know if a state of no-mind is possible. If there is a part of me that believes in a self, this question, or expectation, is one place where it it is still caught.

[codyjdennis]

Just a few questions Zak.

All of those feelings or experiences of a supposed "self" making choices, planning, reacting, are all just vibrations occurring in mind being interpreted by another vibration in mind.

1) What is mind in direct experience?
2) What are "vibrations" in direct experience?
3) Where is the self in DE that "will always exist"?

Everything affects everything else in an infinitely connected and multifaceted reality. Whether conscious of it, or not, there is intention in action.

4) Where is any of this in experience right now?


Notice how there are thoughts trying to come to a conclusion. Thoughts wanting a state of "no-mind". Labeling everything.

[prunejuice]

Direct experience of mind is that mind is like a clearing house, where thoughts arise and are experienced. As long as there are going to be thoughts, there is going to be mind to host them.
3:)"Vibrations" are fluctuations in the structure and texture of what is experienced. A change in the state of what is. Not different or separate from what is, but part of the greater whole; Like a swirl of water in the ocean. Mind is where that swirl is interpreted and seen to be separate. Both mind and what it is interpreting are ultimately the same thing, parts of a greater whole.
3:) In direct experience, there is no continuous self that exists. If left unexamined there is the assumption that there must be something that thought the last thought and it must be thinking this thought which gives rise to the illusion that they are one continuous experience and that is defined as "self".
4:)Right now it is all an experience being observed like a play, through senses of an actor in the play. That actor is continually experiencing a rising sense of awareness of the myriad ways in which everything affects everything else. How every ripple, whether consciously perceived or otherwise, no matter how subtle, propagates out like a wave throughout the entirety of the whole. That actor is not me. There is no me in any of it. I am simply the awareness. The experience itself.

[prunejuice]

Hit submit too fast. That should read:

1:) Direct experience of mind is that mind is like a clearing house, where thoughts arise and are experienced. As long as there are going to be thoughts, there is going to be mind to host them.
2:) "Vibrations" are fluctuations in the structure and texture of what is experienced. A change in the state of what is. Not different or separate from what is, but part of the greater whole; Like a swirl of water in the ocean. Mind is where that swirl is interpreted and seen to be separate. Both mind and what it is interpreting are ultimately the same thing, parts of a greater whole.
3:) In direct experience, there is no continuous self that exists. If left unexamined there is the assumption that there must be something that thought the last thought and it must be thinking this thought which gives rise to the illusion that they are one continuous experience and that is defined as "self".
4:) Right now it is all an experience being observed like a play, through senses of an actor in the play. That actor is continually experiencing a rising sense of awareness of the myriad ways in which everything affects everything else. How every ripple, whether consciously perceived or otherwise, no matter how subtle, propagates out like a wave throughout the entirety of the whole. That actor is not me. There is no me in any of it. I am simply the awareness. The experience itself.

[codyjdennis]

Direct experience is that which does not need any ideas to be.
Notice how these following statements are just thoughts.

Direct experience of mind is that mind is like a clearing house, where thoughts arise and are experienced. As long as there are going to be thoughts, there is going to be mind to host them.

The real question is can a mind be found here right now? Or is mind just another word, another thought?
Can any words actually be found here right now?

"Vibrations" are fluctuations in the structure and texture of what is experienced. A change in the state of what is. Not different or separate from what is, but part of the greater whole; Like a swirl of water in the ocean. Mind is where that swirl is interpreted and seen to be separate. Both mind and what it is interpreting are ultimately the same thing, parts of a greater whole.

Can you actually find any of what you wrote in direct experience?

There is no me in any of it. I am simply the awareness. The experience itself.

Yes there no you. Can you see that is an idea also though. "There is no me".

Generally, as a way of describing things yes there is awareness.

This is very subtle and sticky though. Notice how before it's said something like.."I am real". When it's starts to be seen that I is not ultimately real thought scrambles and attaches to another idea "awareness". It's not really different from believing in (I, me, my,myself). It's another idea.

Occasionally throughout the day just check if you can actually find any thoughts in experience right now. Even the most grand thoughts like awareness or consciousness. Can they be touched, seen, tasted, smelled, felt?

[prunejuice]

Can you actually find any of what you wrote in direct experience?

In Direct Experience, no, there is nothing to experience. Thoughts are happening, but like you said, even this most grand of them can't be found, directly experienced. The most that experience can be reduced to, is the sense of "I am" and then even that can be seen as just an idea. I understand that nothing can cross that threshold. What"is" does not seem to be something that can be thought. Thoughts scramble to try to make some sense out of it...in the retreat farther and farther away from "I", thoughts attached to "awareness" as being a stronghold of existence. Awareness is ultimately just a concept, a way of explaining.
None of it can be directly experienced.

Like your signature line says, there is an idea, a concept that keeps arising that says I am not liberated.

[codyjdennis]

Thoughts are happening, but like you said, even this most grand of them can't be found, directly experienced. The most that experience can be reduced to, is the sense of "I am" and then even that can be seen as just an idea. I understand that nothing can cross that threshold. What"is" does not seem to be something that can be thought. Thoughts scramble to try to make some sense out of it...in the retreat farther and farther away from "I", thoughts attached to "awareness" as being a stronghold of existence. Awareness is ultimately just a concept, a way of explaining.None of it can be directly experienced.

Really really awesome Zak! :)

Right, it's not that thoughts aren't useful. But at best they are pointers/symbols towards reality.

With that insight let's return to these questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
(Look in experience here now like we just did. Is decision, intention, freewill, choice, and control anything but more thoughts?)


Cody

[prunejuice]

1:) No, no-thing. It's all an illusion. It never was. Memories of, appearances of, lots of pretenders, all part of the illusion. All just thoughts, thoughts just concepts. No self to be found in any of it in any way shape or form.

2:) There isn't much to say. Again, there were a lot of pretenders. These things all appear...choice, decision, intention, control. It's all part of the show and the show is all just an idea. None of it can be directly experienced. What could there be to possibly be responsible for? Things appear to be happening (decisions, free will, volitional actions, etc), there appears to be an observer observing it, ultimately, directly, however you want to say it, none of it can be found and that itself is still just another thought. Thought cannot report on what is.

[codyjdennis]

Awesome :)

At this point we usually ask 6 final questions (you have answered two of them already). If you feel you have seen and are clear we can go ahead with them. Let me know if you have anything more to add as well.

Cody :)

[prunejuice]

Hit me with them. We'll see what comes up :)

[codyjdennis]

Here they are:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

You have answered #1 & #5 already. You may answer them again if would like to or you could just answer the other 4.

[prunejuice]

2:) Separate self is an illusion that appears. It left unobserved it seems necessary for operating in and dealing with the living of life. Ultimately life is just happening, or appearing to happen. When does the illusion start? When singularity becomes duality. Or even further back, when nothing becomes some-thing. Of course these are all words, themselves just concepts pointing at what is, which words cannot encapsulate.

3:) It feels natural to see this. Like it always was (is). Any thoughts that arise to the contrary are just that, thoughts themselves, that are immediately seen for the hollow concepts that they are. As for the past few days, mind wants to say that realization is rising, it wants to say that something is growing and changing and surging, but even that is seen for what it is. There isn't anything changing. There is just liberation.

4:) There isn't anything.

6:) Mind likes to talk, mind enjoys the dialog but once seeing what is, what could be added?