Thread for bill =8^0

[Vivien]

Dear Bill,

Vivien: Where do thoughts come from?

Bill: From synapses in various areas in the brain."You are your synapses. They are who you are."
--- Joseph LeDoux, 2002 (in Synaptic Self)

Bill, have you read what I wrote you in my previous post? I only interested in your immediate, actual experience, PRIOR TO any thoughts. So please put aside all these intellectual ‘knowledge’ and LOOK.

Vivien: Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Bill: That blew my mind when I first read it here on LU. I felt quite a release turning the "I" around and seeing it as a thought. Understanding really started to fall into place then.

Bill, this is not about an intellectual understanding, but LOOKING PRIOR TO thoughts.

I’ll ask you to do the exercise again. But this time don’t consult thoughts. Go to the actual experience.

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Where is this ‘I’ exactly that supposedly can stop a though in the middle?

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Love, Vivien

[Billy3xs]

Thank you Vivien,

this is not about an intellectual understanding, but LOOKING PRIOR TO thoughts.
I’ll ask you to do the exercise again. But this time don’t consult thoughts. Go to the actual experience.

Yeow, spanked again! Ok, here goes...

Where do thoughts come from?

My head. There is a very brief sensation of energy bubbling up to something that starts a voice saying the thought.

Where are they going?

They just disappear like waves on the beach. Either being replaced by the next thought or if I'm lucky as a meditator, there's a gap.

So I'll work on this more, just checking in for what I've got so far...

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Where is this ‘I’ exactly that supposedly can stop a though in the middle?

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

What is the thinker of thoughts?

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Sincerely,
bill

[Vivien]

Hi Bill,

You're doing well. You’ve answered two questions so far, so I’ll wait for your reply to the remaining question before I comment on them.

Love, Vivien

[Billy3xs]

Thank you Vivien,

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Well I still stop a thought in the middle. I wake up and stop it, look at it, etc.

Where is this ‘I’ exactly that supposedly can stop a though in the middle?

I don't see an "I" in control, just waking up, becoming aware of the thought.

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

No

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Not at first but I can deal with them.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No, they seem to just come up.

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

"I" is a thought. It's all thoughts bouncing off each other.

What is the thinker of thoughts?

A process, a thought comes, weighs in, another thought comes modifying it or goes off on another topic/daydream.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

No thinker, just process.

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Yes, it's just a thought.

Sincerely,
bill

[Vivien]

Dear Bill,

You did a very good looking :)

Here is an interesting exercise on control.

Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling 'I' be located?

What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

How is decision made?

Love, Vivien

[Billy3xs]

Thank you Vivien,

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?

Well a whole lots of mental games, I was hoping for the time when something happens by itself. Anyway, after a number of "head fake" thoughts, some thought actually decides the arm will move this time.

Can a controlling 'I' be located?

No, can't find anything. Just thoughts, pretty boring. ;-)

What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?

Somehow one of the thoughts finally decides "enough fooling around" and the arm raises.

Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

No, not even sure which thought wins out.

How is decision made?

Not sure, played around long enough a decision was finally made somehow.
It is a fun exercise but there's a kind of boredom here. My meditation has for awhile had a kind of emptiness to it also. Can't imagine not getting anymore benefits to meditation but it has a that "all done" feeling or run out of "good stuff". It's been just to-do lists for some time now. Anyway just sayin...
I'm sure there's plenty more to do, prolly just a plateau.

Sincerely,
bill

[Vivien]

Dear Bill,

Anyway, after a number of "head fake" thoughts, some thought actually decides the arm will move this time.

and

Somehow one of the thoughts finally decides "enough fooling around" and the arm raises.

OK, observe this more closely.

“Thought decides” – is this REALLY the case?
Can a thought make a decision?

Can a thought do anything, except appearing?
Or “thoughts decide” – is just another thought that not seen only as an arising thought, but it is believed?

No, can't find anything. Just thoughts, pretty boring. ;-)

“Pretty boring” – this is just the content of another thought, nothing more, nothing serious.

No, not even sure which thought wins out.

Can a thought win anything, or things just happen by ‘themselves’?

It is a fun exercise but there's a kind of boredom here. My meditation has for awhile had a kind of emptiness to it also.

:) Oh, another thought believed! :) These exercises are not ‘fun’ for the intellect, that’s for sure :) because the intellect (thoughts) cannot take part in it. Looking is PRIOR TO any thoughts.

Observe the ‘boredom’ itself. Observe how it feels. Don’t think about it, but feel it, embrace it.

Love, Vivien

[Billy3xs]

Dear Vivien,

“Thought decides” – is this REALLY the case?
Can a thought make a decision?

D'oh! I knew that, darn, and still typed it. No a thought does not think or decide.

Can a thought do anything, except appearing?
Or “thoughts decide” – is just another thought that not seen only as an arising thought, but it is believed?

Yes thoughts appear streaming only displaying content. This stuff is so wrap around one's head it's hard to see it's presence. This pointing is really helpful. My wife and I are really curious who, or when this approach came about?

Can a thought win anything, or things just happen by ‘themselves’?

Well I'm not sure about thoughts happening by themselves. Somehow the thoughts produced follow structure or a topic, decision making before thought must be in there somewhere.
Sincerely,
bill

[Vivien]

Dear Bill,

Vivien: Can a thought win anything, or things just happen by ‘themselves’?

Bill: Well I'm not sure about thoughts happening by themselves. Somehow the thoughts produced follow structure or a topic, decision making before thought must be in there somewhere.

Bill, this isn’t an intellectual question. I’m not asking your opinion (what is just a thought). I would like to report only from your actual, immediate experience, prior to thoughts. Try it again.

Love, Vivien

[Billy3xs]

Dear Vivien,

Try it again.

Ok, so it felt like there was some effort there until I changed raising my arm to raising my finger. I sat from 4 to 5 am working on this and could not sense anything before thinking.

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?

Can a controlling 'I' be located?

What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?

Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

How is decision made?

Sincerely,
bill

[Billy3xs]

Ooooops, dang! Hit the Submit button again!

[Billy3xs]

Dear Vivien,

Try it again.

Ok, so it felt like there was some effort there until I changed raising my arm to raising my finger. I sat from 4 to 5 am working on this and could not sense anything before thinking.

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?

There is no "I".

Can a controlling 'I' be located?

No "I" can be located.

What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?

I don't know.

Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

No "I" can be found.

How is decision made?

I don't know.

Sincerely,
bill

[Vivien]

Dear Bill,

OK, let’s examine decision from a bit different angle now.

Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
Can a chooser ‘I’ be located?

Love, Vivien

[Billy3xs]

Dear Vivien,

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?

I make coffee for two each morning. So this part is pretty automatic.

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

It just happens. I scoop ground coffee up, look at the level in the scoop, "looks ok" just happens, "get the second scoop" happens, "level ok" happens. "Put the scoop back in the bag so the handle doesn't stick up" happens. "Close the bag, turn toward the fridge" happens. etc.

Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?

The next step just arrives, moment by moment. Morning appears, "time to make coffee" appears...

Can a chooser ‘I’ be located?

Choices appear and the decision appears and corrections appear. No "I" that can be felt or mentally heard can be found. The decisions just happen.
Sincerely,
bill

[Vivien]

Dear Bill,

Choices appear and the decision appears and corrections appear. No "I" that can be felt or mentally heard can be found. The decisions just happen.

Good looking.

Let’s examine the senses one-by-one now.

Seeing
Currently there are words on the screen being read. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestion of thoughts.
What reads these words?
Is there anything that is reading, or reading is just happening?

Look around in the room. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestion of thoughts.
What sees?
Is there a seer somewhere, or there is just seeing happening?

Hearing
Pay attention for the background sounds. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestions of thoughts.
Does a hearer arise in the actual experience?
Is there somewhere a hearer, of just hearing happening?

Smelling
Smell something, an orange, coffee or the hand.
In the fragrance that arises, is there any direct evidence that there is a smeller (or a nose) that is doing the smelling, or is there only smelling?


Of course, thoughts and mental images suggest ‘explanations’, but when they are examined closely, are they really the case?

Love, Vivien