Aloha, looking to partner with a guide

[ElPortal]

HI Jen,

Great: a lovely honest flow again. Thanks for that. It's moving to read what is going on with you.

So far the questions and exercises have been fairly specific, sort of looking at the microcosm. And then my last post was more general (macro). It's sometimes possible for conditioning and illusions to get busted at the micro level, but for concepts, conjectures and assumptions to sort of hang around for longer (T) at the macro level (and sometimes when old deep-rooted emotional stuff comes up). Much of this is what comes up in 'post-gate' dialoguing and support groups. Also, the so called 'human mind' (whatever that may be in reality) loves to attempt to 'complete the circle', to have 'the answers' (as if that were possible!). Even as the sense of self is dissolving there can be a tendency for that 'mind' to try to hang on to 'handrails of the known' for (supposed) security. Just good to notice.

Alot of energy freed up not spent in storying so much.

Hehe, ok. But is storying ok too? (especially when it is not believed, ...but even if it is)?

When you asked me if anything came up, free will is what came to mind. In the sense of a will towards harmony over disharmony. In rereading this last bit above about Life seeing through it's own play, I feel it is answered. Life, playing, and life seeing through it's own play. Life wanting to know, life turning its intelligence on itself directly to see through it's own play. Simply loving what it is up to...seeing through the "jen" isn't about letting go of that life as was my mistaken impression before. The clinging as if "jen" was the life.

So is there any freewill for any 'Jen'? If so, how is this experienced right NOW?
'Harmony over disharmony' T or E? Does this have any meaning? Who or what would be the arbitrator between what is more harmonious or less?
And, returning to my question before: is there a 'Jen' there who is responsible for anything? ANYTHING? A direct answer would be nice.

It's that in no way shape or form at all is it limited to this little teeny tiny slice here typing away.

Again, just being picky, but: so is 'Jen' a teeny tiny slice? A whole cake? Or none of the above? Or what?

Sticking-with-ly

Mark

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

Rats! I had written my whole post then went to hit submit and it erased it. *sigh*

But, at least I had the experience of the consideration. :) So my briefer but still heartfelt answers on take 2:

Hehe, ok. But is storying ok too? (especially when it is not believed, ...but even if it is)?

Yes, it is ok. Any part that would make it not ok would be resistance in action.

So is there any freewill for any 'Jen'? If so, how is this experienced right NOW?
'Harmony over disharmony' T or E? Does this have any meaning? Who or what would be the arbitrator between what is more harmonious or less?
And, returning to my question before: is there a 'Jen' there who is responsible for anything? ANYTHING? A direct answer would be nice

.

Nope, no freewill for jen. Life lifing, yes. Jen Jen'ing, no. Does life have free will? That is not known here :).

Nope, there is no "jen" responsible for anything.

On the Harmony/Disharmony question, it is striking a deep chord in me and I would like to continue my contemplation of that until tomorrow.

Love your "sticking-with-ly".

Again, just being picky, but: so is 'Jen' a teeny tiny slice? A whole cake? Or none of the above? Or what?

Recognizing that Life's lifing is a whole lot more than this local point, this experience arising that is labeled a Jen. And yet, the local point is the life lifing. Paradox. So no, Jen is not a teeny tiny slice nor is she the whole cake. Something else here. Think I need to stick with this one as well for one more day. Something very deep inside my stomach feels like it is trying to unclench. So more tomorrow on this one :).

Thanks for everything,
Jen

[ElPortal]

Hi Jen,

Great again. As part of your further considerations you might like to look at this (which may seem a bit mind-boggling but hey!):-

Recognizing that Life's lifing is a whole lot more than this local point, this experience arising that is labeled a Jen.

So: 'Life's lifing is a whole lot more than this local point': is this (T) or (E). So is it deduction/projection/assumption or direct firsthand immediate experience? Can we ever find in this direct sensing anything more than (sort of) This?
If so please give me some examples of 'the whole lot more' that are being experienced right now? The moon? The supermarket? 'Me'? etc

Look forward to hearing from you.

:-)

Mark

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

Still here! And sitting on the edge of that harmony/disharmony holding sticking point. I can almost see through it. Keep returning to it and not quite through. It's a king pin in the "jen" (T) framework.

I loved this:

So: 'Life's lifing is a whole lot more than this local point': is this (T) or (E). So is it deduction/projection/assumption or direct firsthand immediate experience? Can we ever find in this direct sensing anything more than (sort of) This?
If so please give me some examples of 'the whole lot more' that are being experienced right now? The moon? The supermarket? 'Me'? etc

Letting that one boggle my mind too. :)

Love
jen

[ElPortal]

Hi Jen,

Lovely. Look forward to hearing from you.

Letting that one boggle my mind too. :)

Can (T)ing offer anything more than conjecture? ( I sometimes call it 'mind labyrinth').
With both questions being considered, don't forget to let (E) have its say. Sooo alive!

Let me know what comes up.

Sending love.

Mark

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

Alrighty, let's get started :).

So: 'Life's lifing is a whole lot more than this local point': is this (T) or (E). So is it deduction/projection/assumption or direct firsthand immediate experience? Can we ever find in this direct sensing anything more than (sort of) This?
If so please give me some examples of 'the whole lot more' that are being experienced right now? The moon? The supermarket? 'Me'? etc

Love this. Ok, there is never more than the direct sensing of (sort of) this. I laughed out loud the first time I read the question. Of course! I have had many experiences that involved more direct sensing than apparently was going on around me. The classics--knowing the phone will ring then it does, feeling someone is in trouble and calling them and finding out they had just nearly drowned. But in truth, my sensitivity and perception is still just that--perception, in my direct firsthand immediate experience. I think I have created a false divide (t) about what I think I am supposed to feel vs. what I do, and making up a lot of story about it. Right now, feeling a sense of grounded in my belly, it feels open and soft and I feel interconnected, like all the pieces are humming along together. Not alot of contraction. Open.

Can (T)ing offer anything more than conjecture? ( I sometimes call it 'mind labyrinth').
With both questions being considered, don't forget to let (E) have its say. Sooo alive!

giggling inside on this one. No. Inside (E) spontaneous wisdom can arise that IS (E), but that is not (T). Arrived at in very different ways.

So is there any freewill for any 'Jen'? If so, how is this experienced right NOW?
'Harmony over disharmony' T or E? Does this have any meaning? Who or what would be the arbitrator between what is more harmonious or less?
And, returning to my question before: is there a 'Jen' there who is responsible for anything? ANYTHING? A direct answer would be nice

The intensity in my system of defending that harmony IS has been quite a process. Harmony as an experience, harmony as my system being open and fluid, feeling resonant with my surroundings, feeling relaxed. It seems to me a recognition of a quality that is being experienced. When you ask me--Harmony over disharmony, T or E, does this have any meaning--I feel like it is (E). I also feel like you are pointing at something vital. Is it the moment that series of sensations is recognized and labeled? Much like by pointing out there isn't a separate "jen" you aren't denying that there is an aliveness that is present--by pointing out the question of harmony vs. disharmony you aren't denying there would be a perception of open, alive, receptive softness, yes?

I can't quite let go or get past this one. More questions or more words please would be sooooo appreciated.

Thank you!!

Jen

[ElPortal]

HI Jen

Good to hear from you again. You're doing just great here! I love the earnest questioning and following it through.

The intensity in my system of defending that harmony IS has been quite a process. Harmony as an experience, harmony as my system being open and fluid, feeling resonant with my surroundings, feeling relaxed. It seems to me a recognition of a quality that is being experienced. When you ask me--Harmony over disharmony, T or E, does this have any meaning--I feel like it is (E). I also feel like you are pointing at something vital. Is it the moment that series of sensations is recognized and labeled? Much like by pointing out there isn't a separate "jen" you aren't denying that there is an aliveness that is present--by pointing out the question of harmony vs. disharmony you aren't denying there would be a perception of open, alive, receptive softness, yes?

... which referred to your earlier post where you wrote:-

When you asked me if anything came up, free will is what came to mind. In the sense of a will towards harmony over disharmony. In rereading this last bit above about Life seeing through it's own play, I feel it is answered.

1. I can fully see that there can be an experienced sense of 'harmony' as resistances melt away and what IS is sort of sunk into. But to make sure we are not getting at cross porpoises here (the porpoises surely wouldn't like that ;-) ), could you please give me an example or two of how free will may be involved in the 'will towards harmony over disharmony', if that's what you mean. Does this involve choice? If so, for what or whom? If this is not what you meant, then maybe you would like to expand on what you were saying there.

2. "my system of defending that harmony" and "harmony as my system being open and fluid, feeling resonant with my surroundings". What is 'my system'? How does it feel (E) or is it a thought (T)? Is there really anything more than 'just what is happening'?

3. "Harmony over disharmony... I feel like it is (E)". Is whatever Life is doing alive (and therefore sort of harmonious ie perfect). Is Life's disharmony really harmony too? Eg Wild nature as compared with a carefully maintained 'pretty' rose garden in lines. Does Life really make any distinction between what we call harmony and disharmony? Are we really referring to something which is more or less 'comfortable' to this (apparent) human experience?

Cheers

Mark

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark!

Still here, will be back with you tomorrow. I love your response! Even with just my first read, I feel lighter already. Thank you!!

Warmly and porpoisely (hee hee)
Jen

[ElPortal]

Hehe,

Ok Jen, look forward to it.

x

M

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

This is a "still here" moment. I can say the harmony/disharmony knot is starting to soften, yeah! Still considering :).

Much love,
Jen

[ElPortal]

oki

x

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

1. I can fully see that there can be an experienced sense of 'harmony' as resistances melt away and what IS is sort of sunk into. But to make sure we are not getting at cross porpoises here (the porpoises surely wouldn't like that ;-) ), could you please give me an example or two of how free will may be involved in the 'will towards harmony over disharmony', if that's what you mean. Does this involve choice? If so, for what or whom? If this is not what you meant, then maybe you would like to expand on what you were saying there.

I have so been with this over the past few days. In my experience, the physicality here is very communicative regarding what is harmonious (system opening and resonating) or disharmonious (stomach acid, tight muscles, headache, allergies, rashes) to the system. It is not free will choice. It is so basic and simple--open, or closed. Diaphragm relaxed or tight. Chest open or constricted, closed down. Stomach hurting or stomach relaxed and open. Never about free will, or choice. Pure responding. It is very loud. And one of the biggest sticking points *by far* that there is a "jen". Because "jen" has gotten a lot of mileage out of resisting this loud, clear, constant feedback loop. "Jen" has rested her identity on wanting one side and not the other. I feel calm right now, peaceful. Like the grip wanting to deny that all are experiences and therefore equal is lessening.

2. "my system of defending that harmony" and "harmony as my system being open and fluid, feeling resonant with my surroundings". What is 'my system'? How does it feel (E) or is it a thought (T)? Is there really anything more than 'just what is happening'?

No, nothing more than just what is happening. There is the experience of being very responsive, very sensitive to stimuli. Very much a feeling, not a thought. But that is just what is happening. Problem is when grasping occurs towards pleasure and away from pain, of all kinds. Of trying to divy up the experience into a judgment about it.

3. "Harmony over disharmony... I feel like it is (E)". Is whatever Life is doing alive (and therefore sort of harmonious ie perfect). Is Life's disharmony really harmony too? Eg Wild nature as compared with a carefully maintained 'pretty' rose garden in lines. Does Life really make any distinction between what we call harmony and disharmony? Are we really referring to something which is more or less 'comfortable' to this (apparent) human experience?

No, life does not make a distinction. Accepting all as an expression of Life doing aliveness, all sort of harmonious and perfect, as you say. Feeling so calm inside. Feel like some struggle is subsiding. Peaceful. Grateful. No need to grasp towards nor defend against. Just life, perfectly so.

Thanks Mark,
Jen

[ElPortal]

Hi Jen

Oh,another lovely response.

It is probably clear by now that this seeing is not the arrival into some 'Executive Lounge of deluxe experience, all floaty and calm' where our voice changes to become more like Eckhart Tolle's (respect!), but more of a departure into acknowledging the wild ride. the unleashed flow of Life which has (it turns out) always been there winking and tapping on our shoulder. As such, as Life continues to unfold, there will no doubt be plenty to look at as (at least here) conditioning and programming keeps getting questioned and keeps tumbling, leaving the jaw dropping. At LU support is available through all this, and 'I' will be here too.

But first Jen, if you are ready for them here are our set Summary Questions. Please take your time with them and just answer them honestly as you can, from your present experience (i.e. practice rather than theory):-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now (not just from was may be presumed).
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? What are you responsible for? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you'!) and give as much detail as you can in answering all parts of this question.

6) Anything to add?

I look forward to hearing from you when you are ready. I may have supplementary questions and also I will have other guides see whether they have any (which is our normal practice at this stage).

Hugs and blessings

Mark

[ElPortal]

Paragraph 1: or should that more correctly read "tapping on its own shoulder"!

x

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

Thank you for these lovely questions. I received them and will take my time with them and be back soon.

It is probably clear by now that this seeing is not the arrival into some 'Executive Lounge of deluxe experience, all floaty and calm' where our voice changes to become more like Eckhart Tolle's (respect!), but more of a departure into acknowledging the wild ride. the unleashed flow of Life which has (it turns out) always been there winking and tapping on our shoulder.

I *love* this. Yes, definitely feel the acknowledgement of the wild, wild ride!!

Big hugs,
Jen