Tony1

[Tony1]

Hi Vince,
I very much appreciate your time as you help me with this but I understand it is all volunteer on your part and if this isn't a good time for you I would completely understand and be willing to figure something else out.

Does this mean that there is a story that says "I want a better ok than this one." ? ..or "this ok is too normal to be IT." ? ..or <you fill in this bit>

Yes, that is what is happening. There are thoughts thoughts or stories about how things could or should be better.

What is your reaction, when i say that it's more like an event that shows you that "things" (even shitty things) are perfectly fine ? (calling it an event is not quite right either - but it will do for the moment)

That makes more sense. I suppose things can't be "fixed" but if I could be okay with how they are that would be fine.

Tony1 wrote:Maybe the story that once I get this or see this then I will be happy or satisfied, then everything will be better. What I have now isn't good enough but this great thing will make everything okay.

Can you SEE how this is the beginning of suffering ?

Yes. It's projecting the possibility of happiness to some other place or some other point.

Do all stories (even ones about the past) intend future happiness ?

Yes. Happiness will come later when whatever conditions are met.

Do all stories pivot around a present. A present that is not examined. Not even an actual present, but a story about the present ?

I'm not sure what you mean here. I do see lots of stories about the present that are part of ideas about past and future. Stories of the present as just part of the story. A present that is not examined or realized or lived because it is just part of the larger story.

Can you SEE that there is this NOW (this present moment) and then there is the noticing of it. ..and that by the time it is noticed it is already (milliseconds) in the past ?

No, I can't see that distinction or separation in time. It seems I am noticing it as it happens.

This leads to a total inability to do anything about the present. It can't be changed. It is already finished.
If this is SEEn, i mean REALLY SEEn, then isn't it totally futile to bring anything except a willing acceptance to it ?

Yes, that makes sense.

Is it possible that if an attitude of willing acceptance prevails then the experiencing of NOW will be different ? (to how you now remember it used to be.)

Yes, I would be much easier to live with real acceptance as opposed to resistance of what is and desire for something else.

Thanks,
Tony

[vinceschubert]

'morning Tony

if this isn't a good time for you

It's fine thanks Tony.

Yes, that is what is happening. There are thoughts thoughts or stories about how things could or should be better.

Does a time come when you recognize that there is emotional investment in that story ? i mean, is there a "aha" moment when you see it happening, and that seeing brings a good humored chuckle, and the story and the emotional expression is dropped ?
Does this happen after the story is played out, or during it ? (or never ?)

but if I could be okay with how they are that would be fine.

This is an exercise that you can do at any time. It is really good if the thought arises to do it, when you are in the grip of one of those stories.
Simply LOOK at the current circumstances. Right NOW. This instant, and ask yourself if there is anything 'wrong' with it. Drop the ideas of future consequences, of possible outcomes. Limit your perspective to NOW.
You can call this a Reality Check.

Yes. It's projecting the possibility of happiness to some other place or some other point.

..and ignoring the present.

Can you SEE that there is this NOW (this present moment) and then there is the noticing of it. ..and that by the time it is noticed it is already (milliseconds) in the past ?
No, I can't see that distinction or separation in time. It seems I am noticing it as it happens.

Yes, it seems that way. (just like it seems that there is a Self in there somewhere) Just use logic here. If any of the senses get stimulated, the time it takes for the nerve impulse to reach the brain and be interpreted, is measurable. Logically the noticing happens after the stimulation. ..but the point i was making was that if you touch something hot, it can't be undone. It has already happened. This goes for everything that happens to you. By the time it registers, it is already done. Can you see that this is true ?

Yes, I would be much easier to live with real acceptance as opposed to resistance of what is and desire for something else.

Can you choose to bring "real acceptance" to everything that happens to you ?


love

vince

[Tony1]

Hi Vince.

Does a time come when you recognize that there is emotional investment in that story ? i mean, is there a "aha" moment when you see it happening, and that seeing brings a good humored chuckle, and the story and the emotional expression is dropped ?

Yes, there are realizations that the stories are happening and awareness that they are often the same stories over and over and as you say sometimes that recognition leads to a good humored acceptance that it is just a story and I can let it go. Sometimes, however, it just sort of insists on it's own importance and I have a hard time dropping it even when it is seen as a story.

Does this happen after the story is played out, or during it ? (or never ?)

Usually during, and more often since we have been discussing this.

This is an exercise that you can do at any time. It is really good if the thought arises to do it, when you are in the grip of one of those stories.
Simply LOOK at the current circumstances. Right NOW. This instant, and ask yourself if there is anything 'wrong' with it. Drop the ideas of future consequences, of possible outcomes. Limit your perspective to NOW.
You can call this a Reality Check.

Okay, I will do this.

Drop the ideas of future consequences, of possible outcomes. Limit your perspective to NOW.

This sounds like the key part for me, not to make a story out of now.

If any of the senses get stimulated, the time it takes for the nerve impulse to reach the brain and be interpreted, is measurable. Logically the noticing happens after the stimulation. ..but the point i was making was that if you touch something hot, it can't be undone. It has already happened. This goes for everything that happens to you. By the time it registers, it is already done. Can you see that this is true ?

Yes, that makes sense. I see that by the time I am aware of it, it has already passed in reality. By the time I am aware if it, it was and something else is. Like a stream of sensations that I am aware of just as it passes.

Can you choose to bring "real acceptance" to everything that happens to you ?

No, I can't. I would like to and hopefully I will be able to but I'm still struggling with old habits. I am seeing some changes though with what we have discussed.

Thanks,
Tony

[vinceschubert]

Tony, don't wait for a reply from me before posting again. Make a post of a summary of where you are currently.

Sometimes, however, it just sort of insists on it's own importance and I have a hard time dropping it even when it is seen as a story.

Is it just language, or do you need to do the dropping of the story and the emotions that it generated ? or does it just drop when it is recognized what is happening ?
Yes certainly some stories seem 'sticky'. Those associated with family of origin are often the last to emerge and have the greatest emotional responses.

Does this happen after the story is played out, or during it ? (or never ?)
Usually during, and more often since we have been discussing this.

Excellent. It is the thwarting of the completion that has the biggest effect on the atrophy of the old neuronal circuits.
You will also probably now have the experience of SEEing a story that was about to happen, and watch it drop before it even gets started. A really interesting thing with this is noticing that what seems like a single thought contains a whole book (many chapters) of a story.

This sounds like the key part for me, not to make a story out of now.

Once again, is "not making a story.." something you DO ?
If the thought arises that says "remember, don't make a story.." , is this a DOING or a happening ?

Can you choose to bring "real acceptance" to everything that happens to you ?
No, I can't. I would like to and hopefully I will be able to but I'm still struggling with old habits. I am seeing some changes though with what we have discussed.

Ha, the theme that seems to emerge today is the DOING or allowing...
If struggling happens, then just watch it with amusement. It's the alignment of conditions that will bring change. Not any effort by the imaginary Self.
The things we discuss are just some of those conditions. Your readiness to accept a new way of being is another...

love

vince

[Tony1]

Hi Vince,

don't wait for a reply from me before posting again. Make a post of a summary of where you are currently.

Okay, will do.

do you need to do the dropping of the story and the emotions that it generated ? or does it just drop when it is recognized what is happening ?

I don't see that I am doing anything to drop it. More of a turning away or letting it go. Not participating or giving it more input. Just letting it be and it fades.

You will also probably now have the experience of SEEing a story that was about to happen, and watch it drop before it even gets started.

Yes, I think I have seen this.

A really interesting thing with this is noticing that what seems like a single thought contains a whole book (many chapters) of a story.

I think I know what you mean. I have had this experience which has seemed strange to me and I wondered what was going on. If I have a particularly charged story that repeats a lot I try to let go of it as soon as I recognize it but often it still seems to cause a lot of emotional effects or maybe somehow churns below the surface of conscious awareness. Like I have the briefest thought of a person at work I am having a difficult time with, drop the thought pattern, but still feel agitated and tense. Almost like I had spent time worrying about it anyway.

Once again, is "not making a story.." something you DO ?

No. Making a story is doing or effort. Not making a story is the absence of effort or doing.

If the thought arises that says "remember, don't make a story.." , is this a DOING or a happening ?

The thought is a happening.

Ha, the theme that seems to emerge today is the DOING or allowing...

Yes, I think I see. You can't do acceptance, you can allow acceptance.

If struggling happens, then just watch it with amusement.

Okay.

It's the alignment of conditions that will bring change. Not any effort by the imaginary Self.
The things we discuss are just some of those conditions. Your readiness to accept a new way of being is another...

I think I understand what you are saying.

Thanks,
Tony

[Tony1]

Hi Vince.

I have been working on letting go of thinking and stories and instead trying to just be aware of now. It seems without the thoughts there is often a background angst or anxiety. I'm not sure if that is something like I talked about yesterday where even brief thoughts seem to carry an emotional charge related to the underlying story or if it is something bigger, some general background discontent. It seems to very often be present though once the thoughts have settled. Maybe lots of thinking serves to distract from this state.

Tony

[vinceschubert]

Hi Tony.

It seems without the thoughts there is often a background angst or anxiety.

Do this; freeze your current facial expression.
Now, to become aware of any tension, consciously relax your face. Notice the bits that let go.
It's not only our thinking that is conditioned, but our bodies also.
We can speculate that a large part of the body conditioning is from our habitual thought patterns. Think of something happy and a smile appears, some anxiety and a frown and tension follow.
This highlights the value of the laughing exercise. It not only retrains the thought stream but breaks the connection to the bodies response to it. By flooding the system with feel good hormones (oxytocin) it causes muscle groups to assess what they were doing habitually.

I have been working on letting go of thinking and stories..

It may be just the use of language, but don't "work" on it. What are the ramifications of putting effort into it ?
When you SEE it happening, it will drop. No effort needed. No work required.
The best you can do now, is to invite the recognition (that a story is being lived out) to happen. Then relax.

Maybe lots of thinking serves to distract from this state.

Yes, all thinking is conceptual. With some the concepts attempt to describe experiencing. All of the rest, just adds chapters to whatever story is being told.

I don't see that I am doing anything to drop it. More of a turning away or letting it go. Not participating or giving it more input. Just letting it be and it fades.

Ok, good. Just allow the stuff above to reinforce this...

but often it still seems to cause a lot of emotional effects or maybe somehow churns below the surface of conscious awareness.

Hmm, if you get a hint of this happening, then consider that there may be other stories attached to the one that was dropped. Most stories have other ones attached to them.
The tricky ones are the beliefs, as the attached stories say things like "no need to be aware of this one before responding", or, "this one does not need further consideration. Just take it as correct."
The details of a story don't need to be known for it to be dropped, but it is more likely to come back if those details aren't seen. (regardless, each time it occurs it will weaken)


love

vince

[Tony1]

Hi Vince.

Do this; freeze your current facial expression.
Now, to become aware of any tension, consciously relax your face. Notice the bits that let go.

Yes, that is nice. I see a lot of tension just melt away. Relaxing.

It's not only our thinking that is conditioned, but our bodies also.

Yes, I can see that at least to some degree. Stress and tension lead to aches and tightness and such.

We can speculate that a large part of the body conditioning is from our habitual thought patterns. Think of something happy and a smile appears, some anxiety and a frown and tension follow.

Yes, I see that. I especially notice the tension with some thoughts.

This highlights the value of the laughing exercise. It not only retrains the thought stream but breaks the connection to the bodies response to it.

I have been doing this and it does bring an overall good sensation and sense of well being.

It may be just the use of language, but don't "work" on it. What are the ramifications of putting effort into it ?

Probably more stress and strain but just of a different variety or from a different source.

When you SEE it happening, it will drop. No effort needed. No work required.

I do see this happening now much of the time. There are still some sticky stories though that don't seem to drop with just awareness.

The best you can do now, is to invite the recognition (that a story is being lived out) to happen. Then relax.

Okay, I will.

Hmm, if you get a hint of this happening, then consider that there may be other stories attached to the one that was dropped. Most stories have other ones attached to them.

Yes, that may be it. Other stories or conditioning that are triggered by the experience.

The tricky ones are the beliefs, as the attached stories say things like "no need to be aware of this one before responding", or, "this one does not need further consideration. Just take it as correct."

Yes, I can see how some things are taken as truth or real even though they are all just stories of the mind.

The details of a story don't need to be known for it to be dropped, but it is more likely to come back if those details aren't seen. (regardless, each time it occurs it will weaken)

Okay, that makes sense also.

Thanks,
Tony

[Tony1]

Hi Vince.

Today things seem odd. I feel very detached from whatever is going on and also somewhat aversive to observing it. I just feel out of sync with experience in real time. I also feel sort of like time has compressed down to a smaller size more surrounding my direct experience. Maybe that is a result of less time spent in future or past thoughts. The experience doesn't really translate well to words. Not sure if this has any significance or is just an odd day.

Thanks,
Tony

[vinceschubert]

Today things seem odd.

Hi Tony. What is your emotional and intellectual response to this ?
Certainly the familiar is regarded as safe by the organism, and often a variety of behaviors emerge to keep us there. A quick (and unconsidered) reaction here is that this is a good thing as you are approaching a new way of being.
Given that choice, decisions, and intention are things that we have no actual control over, what is there to do but watch. Just observe with interest. (do report what arises)

There are still some sticky stories though that don't seem to drop with just awareness.

Do you think that this has anything to do with a sticky story (what are the first thoughts that arise from this question)

love

vince

[Tony1]

Hi Vince.

What is your emotional and intellectual response to this ?

I sometimes wonder if these states are somehow indicative of a shift in perspective. They don't seem to persevere though so I'm not sure if they are related to progress or just more random. I don't usually make too much of them and figure that whatever shows up is just what's happening.

Given that choice, decisions, and intention are things that we have no actual control over, what is there to do but watch. Just observe with interest. (do report what arises)

Yes, that is a good way to approach it and I think what I do for the most part. Sometimes I have the feeling that these different perspectives, or whatever they are, are somehow stepping stones and that I should stabilize them or persist in that state in order for things to move forward but it doesn't seem to work that way. They come and go and maybe signify or bring some new understanding or progress but it's hard to say for sure.

Do you think that this has anything to do with a sticky story (what are the first thoughts that arise from this question)

Yes, I suppose it could. Stories about the stories. Layers and layers. That's all that it is, right. It's all stories and beliefs so there must be some story or perceived benefit about the "sticky stories".

Thanks,
Tony

[vinceschubert]

'morning Tony

that whatever shows up is just what's happening.

Ah, excellent response. For me the most persistent and noticeable change since the gate is the lack of frustration when things don't occur the way it was expected (or hoped). This happened as a result of SEEing that it had already happened and reminding myself that it's now too late to change it. That i can't have it again, so move on.

I'm not sure if they are related to progress or just more random.

Yes, another noticeable change here is the need to know or explain has gone. A willingness to accept the mystery about much is apparent. Ha, and as it turned out, most of that stuff (also had an emotional investment), was actually irrelevant anyway.
Have you noticed the obsessive nature of the mind to explain and categorize everything ?

So Tony, where are we up to with this inquiry ?
Do you realize that we are not looking for any finished state ? What we are looking to discover is simply a fork in the path, which gives us a new direction to 'travel' in.
Answer these question from current experiencing..
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

vince

[Tony1]

Hi Vince.

Have you noticed the obsessive nature of the mind to explain and categorize everything ?

Yes, very much.

Do you realize that we are not looking for any finished state ? What we are looking to discover is simply a fork in the path, which gives us a new direction to 'travel' in.

I think so. More of a different perspective or view than a different state or place.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no thing "me" or "I" that can be seen or identified. There was never a self, just a belief that it was.

"Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

The sense of self is thoughts that are held onto or believed in a different way than others. Innumerable causes and conditions come together for an instant, are perceived, then fall apart again. From this constant stream of perception some bits are plucked out and labeled "me" and everything else is labeled "not me". The whole thing is in constant flux or change. You can assume different roles in your life or "self" as different things such as a parent or a coworker or someone who likes to go fishing but they are all just temporary, like changing your clothes or wearing a different hat. None of them are you or are enduring.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Things are let go of more easily. Negative things don't stick in the same way. If there is something that would be seen as a threat or insult to me or my self there is just no place to put that. What could be threatened or insulted?

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I don't know for sure. One thing that was helpful for me was our discussion pointing to the present moment vs stories about the present moment and the Reality Check practice. Also the recognition that my ideas or beliefs about my stories were just more stories. No bottom to the thoughts or real reason or truth. Just more thoughts.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There is a stream of infinite causes and conditions that leads to the present moment including the situation, actions, thoughts, etc. This moment is cause and effect without choice or control. If there is thought or planning toward some future decision that is only thought. Even the arising of the thought to decide is conditioned. There is or can be a sense of me or self that is attached to that process but it is put on after the fact.

The deciding happens and the sense of self or I tags along and takes credit. Things are just done without the control of "me". The intention to do something arises then the self says "I chose that" but the intention arises on its own from conditions. I am aware of the sensations of hunger then the desire to eat then picking up an apple and taking a bite. I could say I chose to eat the apple but it just happens because of causality.

Anything to add?

I can't think of anything.

Thanks,
Tony

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Tony.
We have a formality where it is needed that 3 other guides confirm that you have passed through the gateless gate. This has been done, and now you will be invited to join a Facebook group where ' 'gatecrashers' support each other. The 'path' continues.( 'deepening' happens)
There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in these groups, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert

and here is a small doc worth reading here; http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf

Oh, and once you have settled in, you might consider guiding others (kind of 'paying it forward') which i think that you'll be good at. There is mentoring/training for this, but the wisdom that SEEing reveals takes you most of the way.

love

vince

[Tony1]

Hi Vince,
Thank you very much for your help and guidance. I didn't have a facebook account but would like to participate in the group so I made one and sent you a friend request. I may consider serving as a guide at some point, thank you for the suggestion.
Thanks again,
Tony