Aloha, looking to partner with a guide

[ElPortal]

HI Jen

aaaaaand.... a couple of things to consider from your previous post:-

I kept noticing that I had forgotten to notice my direct experience and had gone back to listening to the commentary/opinions/judgments/fears/hopes and general chatter in my head.

1. Does 'listening to' actually refer to 'believing'? (believing as in some sort of identification like: "oh this must be me then, or mine then").
2. Is there any real 'Jen' who seems to have the ability to change 'her' experience? Or is that really anything but a flow of Life, flowing however it will, whether in clear seeing or in playing around with beliefs and illusions?
3. Does there being a real, individual 'Jen', or there being no real, individual 'Jen', rely on forgetting or remembering, or on practice or no practice? Or has it in fact always been the case, irrespective of what might have been claimed/thought/believed by that 'Jen'?

Feel belly tightening and jaw tightening, a tugging, a resistance yes. Almost seeing, flickering in and out of a deep deep lightness and then a blank sense, a dullness, then the brightness again.

4. Great! Some of these may seem more 'pleasant' than the others, but have a look and tell me whether any of it seems more or less alive than the rest? It is all happening: is it all allowed, welcomed by 'Life'? Does any of it make more of a real separate 'Jen', or less of one, irrespective of what is thought?

Please take some time over these questions, allowing space with each to look behind purely mental responses to what actually comes up, what feels real, the NOW sensations. (Full marks so far for doing this!)

Accompanyingly

Mark

[ElPortal]

Hi Jen

PS correction: in that last post Q2 SHOULD read: "2. Is there any real 'Jen' who has any ability to change 'her' experience? Or is that really anything but a flow of Life, flowing however it will, whether in clear seeing or in playing around with beliefs and illusions?"

x

M

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

Here's my list from this am of e&t'ing:

E --Hearing alarm going off
e--Jumping at the sound
e--Grabbing phone and setting timer
e--Starting voice memo
t--Worrying about getting it right
e--Laying back down into bed
t--Sleeping still on my mind
e--Feeling my back touching the mattress
t--Remembering liberation unleashed video where she talks about her back on the ground
e--Hearing my roommate walking around
e--Yawning
t--Remembering my teacher talking about sensing mental proliferation
t--Thinking I’m supposed to do that, sense the mental proliferation
e--Feel the phone in my hand
e--Head pressure
e—feeling quiet inside
e--Train sound in the distance
t--Vague sense of worry and fear
t--Remembering what I ate for dinner
t--thinking about Ayurvedic meals
e--Cramp in my pelvis
e--Crunchy sound outside the door
t--Worried about doing it right
e--Air filling lungs
e--Feeling my wrist
e/t--Feeling anxious (so sleepy and so much sensation at once, couldn’t quite find the words)
e--Itching face
t--Worrying about snow
e--Leaning into the bed
e--Softening ribs
e/t--Feeling of warmth and satisfaction

I am in the middle of a move today and tomorrow,and just got a call that I have to go give a young friend a ride unexpectedly late in the evening. I will consider your other post that I just saw either tomorrow or the next day after the move for sure. I want to give it my best attention. I will check in tomorrow regardless.

Thank you so much!!

Jen

[ElPortal]

Hi Jen,

Great to hear from you.

Thanks for letting me know about the move. I'll hold off from sending any more 'work' till you have had chance to look at the last lot... when you're ready.

Warmly

Mark

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

Wow! That homework packs a punch.

I would like to formally bust myself on what appears to me as a resistance pattern of coming to contemplate this towards the end of the day. It would work much better if I begin the day with it, or at the very least, do it in the middle. Even leaving two hours at the end of the day is not sufficient if I am tired when I begin. This stuff is way more fundamentally important than some little "oh yes, let me just go do that other thing on my to-do list towards the end of the day."

With that said, let's turn towards your (absolutely lovely) first question:

1. Does 'listening to' actually refer to 'believing'? (believing as in some sort of identification like: "oh this must be me then, or mine then").

Instantly lightened internally on reading that, with a little giggle. Then a feeling of heaviness, and looked up the meaning of the words "listen" and "believe" (a favorite technique of mine to slow down and contemplate a word, and let the sensations arise in the now). It is believing all the way! In fact, it appears to me that "believing" is what is happening far more often than "listening" when I'm "believing" I'm "listening". Feeling breathing a little more shallow. Feeling droopy eyes, tension in my head. Recognition that if aliveness is not slowed down by believing and identifying, it will just keep moving on, as it does, flowing along. A warm brightness now inside, something seeming to open. Not being stopped by something--the stopping is the staying on it.

2. Is there any real 'Jen' who has any ability to change 'her' experience? Or is that really anything but a flow of Life, flowing however it will, whether in clear seeing or in playing around with beliefs and illusions?"

tension in the chest, tightening in the jaw, feeling of wanting to "grrrrrrrr". then laughter, giggling. No, no real jen who has any ability to change "her experience". Flowing is...if the flow of life flows as it does here, now, playing with clear seeing, that is what is happening. My god. Aliveness, yes. No denying that. But a driver? that is separate? driving it? When looking happens, this is not seen. Just the flow, and man does it ever flow. Never not flowing, ever. Not even for a second. Dropping head into hand. Wow.

3. Does there being a real, individual 'Jen', or there being no real, individual 'Jen', rely on forgetting or remembering, or on practice or no practice? Or has it in fact always been the case, irrespective of what might have been claimed/thought/believed by that 'Jen'?

This one really brings up giggling. So absurd, the grip and identification! It's real or not real, period. If it is real, it is never not real. Covering eyes, laughing out loud. No, no matter how hard a mental grip or identification with that grip, it a real "jen" cannot make. Gripping is just gripping, not a separate being. The flow is playing at gripping...A yawn comes all the way from my belly, a yawn associated with deep system resets. Now a content smile, feel of wrists against the table and computer. then a feeling of deep jolly-ness, followed by a (t) of--how absolutely hilarious, how f'ing funny can it get?

4. Great! Some of these may seem more 'pleasant' than the others, but have a look and tell me whether any of it seems more or less alive than the rest? It is all happening: is it all allowed, welcomed by 'Life'? Does any of it make more of a real separate 'Jen', or less of one, irrespective of what is thought?

No, not more or less alive. More or less shiny, bright, sparkly, clear, foggy yes, as qualities. It is all happening, and it is all welcomed by "life". That's what life "lifing"--it welcomes everything. In regards to does it make a more real separate "Jen"--No it doesn't. I think there has been an attachment to the more "pleasant" aspects, an identification, that that is the "real jen" and the rest is a terrible inconvenient fog to the "real jen" as she waits to be liberated and "feel herself" again. Wow (again) what a different understanding, to not see clinging to one set of sensations as preferable while another set of sensations is "the problem", "Jen's" problem of course. Because there is no problem otherwise is there? Ha! Belly tightening, feeling of jaw tightening again and muscles tensing. Then bam--just like that, letting go. Felt a thought form coming in and identification beginning then simply went back to the body sensations and they moved lightening fast.

Thank you for this wonderfully revealing homework! So glad you are with me "accompaningly" :).

Aloha,
Jen

[ElPortal]

Hi Jen

Beauuuuuuuutiful. Reads as though some expansion is happening, some seeing through the illusion of a separate self that had been thought to be in control. Yes? What developments have been noticed, if any, since we started this dialogue? Remember that this is not an arrival to a destination, but just a departure.....

Let's now explore a little further into control, choice, responsibility, i.e. has there ever been a real individual there in control, making choices, responsible for anything? Of course it may appear to be that way in the daily functioning, but let's look at what's really going on:-

Here's an exercise: The next time you take a drink, consider three alternatives from drinks which are available. Stay with the consideration of each, then notice the apparent move towards one or the other. Can a choice point be found (a place where the decision takes place)? Once the 'choice' is 'made', consider all the elements in the flow of life which may have formed part of that movement: environment, culture, weather, conditioning, bodily needs, 'my' favourite etc. Can any autonomous 'Jen' be found who chooses the drink?

A similar exercise to consider when getting up in the morning, over what clothes are chosen for that day: again, look at all the apparent elements of the movement/process: climate, availability, conditioning, culture (will it be a kimono?), functioning (is it for farming?), apparent personal preferences, 'favourite colours', what matches etc etc. This can be one of the most 'personal' things: the appearance/dress. But can any real 'Jen' be found, any autonomous self, separate from the rest of the movement of life, who can choose what to wear?

Warmly,

Mark

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

This has been a busy get unpacked and finish setting up the new house day, so this reply is a combo "still here and still considering" plus an initial response :). I will check out your homework with drinks/clothes tomorrow.

Reads as though some expansion is happening, some seeing through the illusion of a separate self that had been thought to be in control. Yes? What developments have been noticed, if any, since we started this dialogue? Remember that this is not an arrival to a destination, but just a departure.....

Yes, definitely some expansion happening. Last night when I was writing, laughter was so present, so bubbling up. I'm noticing I am doing things right away to complete them, such as responding to texts, emails, putting things away. Instead of "waiting until i am ready." Before I would often wait for awhile, with additional drama built in and building up that it was both a big deal and that I should feel guilty because I hadn't done it. In essence, alot of noise and entertainment. Now, doing just seems to be happening much easier with no real thought or drama about it. And if that drama habit starts to kick in, it feels stale, sour, not fresh, and it is dropped quickly. I also noticed a sense of lightness as each action completed, much less heaviness without all that thinking and creating story.

Look forward to doing the exercises tomorrow!

Thanks again,
Jen

[ElPortal]

That's great. Will hear from you then then.
x
Mark

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark!

Alrighty, let's dive in:

Here's an exercise: The next time you take a drink, consider three alternatives from drinks which are available. Stay with the consideration of each, then notice the apparent move towards one or the other. Can a choice point be found (a place where the decision takes place)? Once the 'choice' is 'made', consider all the elements in the flow of life which may have formed part of that movement: environment, culture, weather, conditioning, bodily needs, 'my' favourite etc. Can any autonomous 'Jen' be found who chooses the drink?

Oh, the frustration! The childlike sense of wanting to stick out my lip, kick the dusty floor, and pout! Why? Because I can't deny the truth of my experience here, at all. I have spent hours contemplating that what we call a person is much like lines drawn on a piece of paper, one over the other, from every direction, until they begin to form what we would call a point. Is there a point? Or is it simple the description of where all the lines cross? NOT A PERSON! AND I COMPLETELY DO NOT WANT TO ADMIT THIS!! translated into body sensations as jaw tension, belly tension, and neck tension. And I know it to be the truth, unequivocally, in my experience. I have proven it over and over and over again. The "my" is an ownership, a description of a stream of data unfolding, of sense perceptions and responses to we-know-not-what, only that they are there. But if I admit that, admit it fully...then I admit that "I" am not. Like, completely am not. In your previous questions, it was easier to admit that. Here, the part that is tensing is truly making a valiant last stand. Trying to prove something that is not, is, by cramping.

A similar exercise to consider when getting up in the morning, over what clothes are chosen for that day: again, look at all the apparent elements of the movement/process: climate, availability, conditioning, culture (will it be a kimono?), functioning (is it for farming?), apparent personal preferences, 'favourite colours', what matches etc etc. This can be one of the most 'personal' things: the appearance/dress. But can any real 'Jen' be found, any autonomous self, separate from the rest of the movement of life, who can choose what to wear?

Ok, now it's getting funny again. What is a personal favorite color anyway? What is a favorite? A preference? And what is a preference? Where a feeling of ease and comfort emerges...Dizzying, feeling all these lines of force lining up, all these information fields crossing. All just moving, all just in motion, all playing out. Stomach tension, jaw tension. Not...Wanting...to...admit. I've been much more comfortable with the other places "jen" is pointed out to be fiction. But here, all pun intended, "this time, it's personal." Ah, yes. The insistence on "personalness" is the very basis for "personhood", isn't it? As if the differences being expressed were a something versus a function of perception in a specific location.

Now, a feeling of lightness. Of recognition. That the movement is moving, and somehow, in some amazing miracle, there is awareness of the moving. And the fact that these hands are typing on this keyboard in this house at this hour in this town in this country is simply an artifact of all these moving forces. Amazing. Smiling, nodding, shaking my head.

Thanks Mark,

Jen

[ElPortal]

Hi Jen

Thanks for that. Again, beautiful flow and honesty - even if with a little 'storying'/theory at the beginning there (T) ;-) .

Love the way that you acknowledge the sensations which arise, and then their passing. These can be welcomed as though they are a little child - or Life Itself -, come to say hello. Maybe even asked whether they have something else to tell/show us (just listen, or allow images to form*)? And then allowed to pass when they pass. But now here's a question about these physical-sensation reactions: do they form a real autonomous "Jen" (eg who is reacting) or is this too just a movement of Life, or an energy or an aliveness, coming.... then going. So what is there there to hang on to or to let drop? A real Jen or some (apparently) physical constrictions and energies?

(*If this does happen, listen to the messages/stories, or notice the images (T), and then notice any associated physical sensations which arise (E), embracing these and letting them pass when they pass, just as you do already with the other sensations).

Now would you go back to at least one of those two exercises (read it through again) and actually notice the (apparent) decision-making process taking place (or not, or whatever it is that takes place in the going for one thing rather than the other). Just describe to me the steps, the nuts and bolts, of what actually happens.

Then I would like to give two further questions for your consideration:

a) What comes up now when it is read that there is no general manager called 'Jen' running the show here, not in any way shape or form, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be?

b) Do there seem to be any sticking points for you, standing between what IS and 'what should be'?

Let me know what's coming up.

Sending love

Mark

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

Wow, you are a man that knows how to bring on the amazing inquiry :).

And yes, totally cop to a little "storying"(T) in the beginning there :).

Love the way that you acknowledge the sensations which arise, and then their passing. These can be welcomed as though they are a little child - or Life Itself -, come to say hello. Maybe even asked whether they have something else to tell/show us (just listen, or allow images to form*)? And then allowed to pass when they pass. But now here's a question about these physical-sensation reactions: do they form a real autonomous "Jen" (eg who is reacting) or is this too just a movement of Life, or an energy or an aliveness, coming.... then going. So what is there there to hang on to or to let drop? A real Jen or some (apparently) physical constrictions and energies?

What I am struck by in your question and in my response is the sense of equalness. With no real jen to hang on to, there is just this..this...this...this. Sensation, sensation, sensation, sensation. Equalness. None lasting long, all changing and dancing through. No real jen to hold onto. There is nothing to hang on to, how can you hang onto a sensation? an energy? there is nothing to hold, it is not holdable. Moving is, that is for certain.

When I ask myself "do they form a real autonomous Jen," such an open, simple sensation arises. Peaceful. No Jen. Just life moving. And deep resting on that the movement continues with no need of a jen driving it. Really, really resting on that. Maybe never really rested like that before...

Now would you go back to at least one of those two exercises (read it through again) and actually notice the (apparent) decision-making process taking place (or not, or whatever it is that takes place in the going for one thing rather than the other). Just describe to me the steps, the nuts and bolts, of what actually happens.

K, chose to use this one:

Here's an exercise: The next time you take a drink, consider three alternatives from drinks which are available. Stay with the consideration of each, then notice the apparent move towards one or the other. Can a choice point be found (a place where the decision takes place)? Once the 'choice' is 'made', consider all the elements in the flow of life which may have formed part of that movement: environment, culture, weather, conditioning, bodily needs, 'my' favourite etc. Can any autonomous 'Jen' be found who chooses the drink?

Process:
--I look at the drinks
--one seems to "sparkle", feels more lively in that moment.
--a noticing of that liveliness then...
--then there is movement towards it, picking it up

it's non-verbal, and totally in motion.

Feels completely dependent, on everything, no separate jen. No choice point, it is non-locational. It just happens.

a) What comes up now when it is read that there is no general manager called 'Jen' running the show here, not in any way shape or form, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be?

Calm, very calm, and a sense of relief. Sense of wonder, of what will come next in this never ending parade of sensation, energy. A freshness in my eyes, a sense of really looking. Not filtering through language or concept (until I went to type :)).

b) Do there seem to be any sticking points for you, standing between what IS and 'what should be'?

Not right now, the calm is too strong and pervasive. But I will continue to look at that the rest of the evening and in the am.

Deep deep peace.

Thank you Mark,

Much love
jen

[ElPortal]

Hi Jen,

Great to read that latest response. As you wrote at the end, please let me know whether any sticking points or doubts come up and we will look into them, before going on to our final Summary Questions. (Of course looking into issues of conditioning can be an on-going life-long process, and at LU we have several support groups for further looking. But here we are just looking at busting the illusion of a separate self.)

Could you please tell me how does it feel so far since starting this investigation together? Any changes?

So far it is looking as though we have not been able to find a real separate body, nor a 'Jen' in 'it'. No 'Jen' has been found who 'experiences' or who can change 'her experience'. No real 'Jen' who thinks thoughts or who does any believing in them. No 'Jen' who chooses or controls.

So, have a look and a scan: is there a 'Jen' there who is responsible for anything? ANYTHING?
Has there even been a real individual 'Jen' there doing this investigation? Are even the 'playing at being a Jen' (or 'playing at being a Mark') anything more than (something like) Life's play? And the seeing through all of that, is that any more than (something like) Life's seeing through it's own play?

Let me know what comes up.

Cheers

Mark

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

Still here, still considering, I'll be back tomorrow :).

Warmly,
Jen

[ElPortal]

oki

x

[jenfreeman]

Aloha Mark,

I've been considering off and on your questions all day.

Could you please tell me how does it feel so far since starting this investigation together? Any changes?

Gosh, that is a hard one to answer. It feels like so many changes and so hard to put into words. A sense of awe. Alot of energy freed up not spent in storying so much. A sense of seeing clearer, as in literally my eyes feel like they are seeing clearer, more penetration in the gaze. Relaxing in my body, relaxing in mind. And a sense of humor coming in and out that is so rich, it's delightful.

So, have a look and a scan: is there a 'Jen' there who is responsible for anything? ANYTHING?
Has there even been a real individual 'Jen' there doing this investigation? Are even the 'playing at being a Jen' (or 'playing at being a Mark') anything more than (something like) Life's play? And the seeing through all of that, is that any more than (something like) Life's seeing through it's own play?

I love this. When you asked me if anything came up, free will is what came to mind. In the sense of a will towards harmony over disharmony. In rereading this last bit above about Life seeing through it's own play, I feel it is answered. Life, playing, and life seeing through it's own play. Life wanting to know, life turning its intelligence on itself directly to see through it's own play. Simply loving what it is up to...seeing through the "jen" isn't about letting go of that life as was my mistaken impression before. The clinging as if "jen" was the life. Now, from here, with this gaze that is much sharper, I feel how much *more* the alive feeling is when not filtered or hemmed into the fictional narrative. It's not that the moving, talking, eating, sleeping, driving, typing "isn't happening". It's that in no way shape or form at all is it limited to this little teeny tiny slice here typing away.

So is there a "Jen" responsible for anything? Immediately what comes up is--what is learning? How do the choices change? Why was the decision stream so different when "younger" and becomes more nuanced as "older." Ah yes, I fell for it again. Mistaking the unfolding of awareness and perception--life's play--as being "Jen's" unfolding and perception. Not that the unfolding isn't there--it's that the unfolding isn't personal. As in, of a person, or evidence of a person.

Learning happens, understanding happens, growth happens. Life playing. I am shaking my head with bemusement, feeling how hard the grip is on identifying that play as a person, the grip to a "jen" being the mistaken belief that I have to grip as "jen" in order to be that aliveness. That the aliveness is an object to be possessed by the fictional character.

Not a jen.
Nothing that limited or small.
Not a jen at all.

Thanks Mark,
Jen