Looking for a guide.

[greggyz]

Complete cessation of thoughts is impossible, sure, but thoughts related to an imaginary self should cease once the realization is complete.

Cease for whom?
And why?

Cease for no one. Why? I understood it that way.

To put it another way, are the seeking thoughts a problem?
VERY GOOD QUESTION.
If so, to whom?
To the fake 'I'

And the fake 'I' is what?

- An idea.

Xain ♥

[Xain]

Good.

Is it realised, then, that 'cessation of thoughts' is just an expectation?
Also, is it realised just why that expectation may not be fulfilled?

If some-sort of cessation of thoughts were expected, that would imply that there was a seperate self, an 'I' here that could effect such a change. Or have that change applied to them / it.
Is this clear for you or is there still confusion in this area? I think it's important to make sure.

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

Is it realised, then, that 'cessation of thoughts' is just an expectation?
Also, is it realised just why that expectation may not be fulfilled?

Yes it clear that it's an expectation but I don't know who can answer whether it can be fulfilled or not. Maybe it can be, I suspect though it may be irrelevant.

If some-sort of cessation of thoughts were expected, that would imply that there was a seperate self, an 'I' here that could effect such a change. Or have that change applied to them / it.
Is this clear for you or is there still confusion in this area? I think it's important to make sure.

I don't agree that cessation of thoughts would imply that there is/was a separate self. Even without an 'I' things can be affected. Just when the sky clears out of clouds it doesn't imply a self or a cessation of a self. However, what I see is that there is something that expects cessations and if that something is clung to as 'I' I understand the problem. I don't know. I am a little lost.

What is enlightenment?

[Xain]

I don't agree that cessation of thoughts would imply that there is/was a separate self.

Why is a cessation of thoughts expected?
Who or what is it going to benefit?
Who or what wants thoughts to stop?

What does it matter if thoughts cease or continue if there is no 'I' anywhere in the involvement?

What is enlightenment?

Why do you ask?
Who or what is going to get 'enlightened'?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

Why is a cessation of thoughts expected?

Coz there was an idea that the imaginary 'I' will feel good. hahaha.

Who or what is it going to benefit?

Goooooood question. This diseased 'I' keeps wanting to be acknowledged :) hahah, it just won't die

Who or what wants thoughts to stop?

An idea wants thoughts to stop.

What does it matter if thoughts cease or continue if there is no 'I' anywhere in the involvement?

Best question so far!!!!

---- What is enlightenment? - ----
Why do you ask?
Who or what is going to get 'enlightened'?

I asked because the 'I' imagines a lot of funny bullshit :) No one......

[Xain]

Well we can keep looking for as long as you want to.

Speaking conventionally, I have not experienced a cessation of thoughts in realising this.
However, many thoughts are now simply witnessed and let go of immediately as 'just a thought appearing' and are not hooked on to or automatically beleived as 'true'.

Do you have any further questions?
Any specific things that are not clear?

Remember, my guidance was to realise that 'I', the seperate self that we believe we are is just a thought / idea / belief.

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

Well we can keep looking for as long as you want to.

Speaking conventionally, I have not experienced a cessation of thoughts in realising this.
However, many thoughts are now simply witnessed and let go of immediately as 'just a thought appearing' and are not hooked on to or automatically beleived as 'true'.

Do you have any further questions?
Any specific things that are not clear?

Remember, my guidance was to realise that 'I', the seperate self that we believe we are is just a thought / idea / belief.

Xain ♥

My only question is what enlightenment is. If you don't know it's fine. Your guidance is great. I wonder if there is more.

[Xain]

Hi Greg

The other guides have looked at your answers, and they have no more questions.
It seems clear that you have 'gone through the gate' so to speak.

My only question is what enlightenment is. If you don't know it's fine. Your guidance is great. I wonder if there is more.

The issue is that 'enlightenment' is only a pointer.

You could say that 'enlightenment' applies to someone (conventionally speaking) who has realised the extent to which mind and thought 'creates' the world and the self and lives permanently from a place of realising this.
That, however, can be considerered as some-what of a unrealistic position (and expectation).

Why?

Again, speaking on a conventional level each individual has a certain amount of mental conditioning which automatically operates. This MAY fall away. Realising that the self is just a creation of thought may assist in this process as, rather than every single thought being automatically believed in, it will be realised that it is simply 'just a thought' and not clung to.

Does that explanation help?

Xain ♥

[Xain]

Just one further thing

'Who or what wants thoughts to stop?'

'An idea wants thoughts to stop.'

What's your take on this?
Is this a realisation that wanting thoughts to stop is nothing more than an idea, a thought . . . or something else?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

"""Who or what wants thoughts to stop?'
'An idea wants thoughts to stop.'""

This confused me myself. lol. Let me explain what make sense to me now, I wanted thoughts to stop but since 'I' whose thoughts stop is just an idea I said there was an idea to stop thoughts. I was clinging to peace and bliss and associated thoughts cessation with peace and bliss but it doesn't make sense now because there is no one being disturbed, apart from an imaginary 'i', so there is no need for peace or bliss. But this is just my intellectual understanding. There is still wanting arising in me despite this understanding.

Not sure if I cleared it up.
:)
The guidance up to this point was somewhat smooth.

[Xain]

There is still wanting arising in me despite this understanding.

Can you explain?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

There is still wanting arising in me despite this understanding.

Can you explain?

Xain ♥

I have always looked up to arhats and always wanted to be one. So there is a wanting to be an arahant. Obviously it's the same 'I' that wants it.

[Xain]

You have realised that 'I' is an idea, a thought.
What about 'others'? (Other people).

So there is a wanting to be an arhat

And the assumption there is that there is a real 'arhat' that exists outside of thought.
You assume there is because 'you' want to become one.
Is there?

Is there a 'you' that has ever 'looked up to them'?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

You have realised that 'I' is an idea, a thought.
What about 'others'? (Other people).

So there is a wanting to be an arhat

And the assumption there is that there is a real 'arhat' that exists outside of thought.
You assume there is because 'you' want to become one.
Is there?

Is there a 'you' that has ever 'looked up to them'?

Xain ♥

By now, the fact that others are just ideas is common sense to me. Nevertheless, conventionally we say 'arhat' so used it. Even though there is no solid 'I' and stuff but they way 'arhats' behave is to be looked up to. Just like there was no I that began this journey there doesn't have to be an I to become an arhat. Neither label points at something solid or some entity but it is convenient to use to imply that the journey isn't over.

Hope it is understandable. :)

[Xain]

Hope it is understandable. :)

Absolutely, and you show excellent understanding.

Are you settled at this point?
Do you have any further questions?

Xain ♥