Thanks for letting me know, Jerry, I look forward to your answers.
By the way, these are not the final questions ...
Fred
Guide Request
Re: Guide Request
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts
Re: Guide Request
Hi Fred,
1) Has anything changed since the beginning of our exchange?
Yes and no. Yes, some changes in the way the thought stream is observed and seen. More clarity about the imaginary self and its disguises, a slight change in perception - i.e. seeing experience as a whole rather than separate and fragmented. Greater clarity about the absence of self. No, there is no change in the experience of the real which seems to be unaffected by all the thoughts supporting its imaginary existence.
2) In your most immediate experience, have you found a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’, the ‘doer’, or a self that makes decisions?
No. Cannot find any of those characters.
3) Have you found a self who ‘does the thinking’?
No. Cannot find a thinker - just thoughts pointing to a thinker.
4) When you say « I », what are you referring to?
I is a thought pointing to a thought, an idea, a made-up imaginary self living in or as the body and mind and personal identity.
5) Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
The body is experienced.
6) Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
No. No self in here separate from the world and others out there. It is all one undivided whole of experience - nothing separate from the experience - just experience.
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
There is just experience. There is no experiencer experiencing - that's just an imagined entity that cannot be found separate from experience.
8) Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
No, no doubt, very clear - the self is simply a mental fabrication, a mistaken identity of ownership of experiences - "It's all mine - my body, my mind, my thoughts, my decisions, my actions, my choices, my preferences, my pain, my suffering, my accomplishments and failures, etc etc - everything is mine." It is the very source of an imagined separation from all that is, completely imaginary, completely fabricated and maintained from the mind stream of thought content and completely untrue."
9) Would you say, unequivocally, that you have seen through the illusion of separate self?
I would say unequivocally that I see through the illusion of a separate self. But tomorrow? Who knows? :-)
10) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?
Sorry about the length - it's the shortest version I've managed so far...
Humans experience themselves as being separate from the world and others - as a separate independent part of life. This experience is based upon ideas that each person is a separate owner, doer, and experiencer of his life and the world with free will and choice and personal responsibility for his choices and actions. These ideas are taught to us when we are small naive children by parents and others who believe them to be true. These ideas are actively and continually reinforced by our memories and language based thoughts and interactions with other humans who believe the same ideas. Thus it is a socially constructed self/world/life view. Because humans primarily think to understand or interpret themselves and their experiences and because language itself is constructed to presume the truth of this world view, most humans never question these ideas. Humans created language which presumes and reflects these ideas as being true with its subject/verb/object structure and words such as I, me, myself, self, you, etc. These words serve as the subject in the subject verb object schema; therefore, these words point to the idea that there is a real separate person owning, performing, and experiencing all the various experiences of life. However all these ideas are false. Life does not really work this way, and there actually is no such thing as a separate me or you. We simply do not exist as the individual person we think we are. These ideas along with language based thought and memories creates and actively maintains the illusion of a fictional imaginary story character called me or you or I or Jerry. Our name and these subjective pronouns just point to the idea that we exist as a real entity, but no such entity can actually be found to exist in direct experience. With some honest research, we can discover the truth of this assertion. With direct experience we can see what is really here (all the experiences and actions of life such as sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts, feelings, sensations, actions, decisions, etc) and what has been assumed or imagined to be here (the imaginary me or you who owns, experiences, and does these actions, decisions, etc). We can discover that these ideas of ownership and doer-ship are not true, that we are not separate entities separate from our experiences of life and we never were. We can discover that the only place to find a self or self image is in our memory based thought stream which presumes and infers it to exist separate from the rest of life. We can discover that life is actually directly experienced as a unitary interdependent whole doing itself with no independent entities such as you or me doing, owning, or experiencing life. This allows for the dropping of the heavy burdens, struggle, confusion, and stress associated with an incorrect self/world/life view with its inferred responsibilities of ownership, doer-ship, and free will. This is real freedom, real peace.
1) Has anything changed since the beginning of our exchange?
Yes and no. Yes, some changes in the way the thought stream is observed and seen. More clarity about the imaginary self and its disguises, a slight change in perception - i.e. seeing experience as a whole rather than separate and fragmented. Greater clarity about the absence of self. No, there is no change in the experience of the real which seems to be unaffected by all the thoughts supporting its imaginary existence.
2) In your most immediate experience, have you found a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’, the ‘doer’, or a self that makes decisions?
No. Cannot find any of those characters.
3) Have you found a self who ‘does the thinking’?
No. Cannot find a thinker - just thoughts pointing to a thinker.
4) When you say « I », what are you referring to?
I is a thought pointing to a thought, an idea, a made-up imaginary self living in or as the body and mind and personal identity.
5) Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
The body is experienced.
6) Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
No. No self in here separate from the world and others out there. It is all one undivided whole of experience - nothing separate from the experience - just experience.
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
There is just experience. There is no experiencer experiencing - that's just an imagined entity that cannot be found separate from experience.
8) Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
No, no doubt, very clear - the self is simply a mental fabrication, a mistaken identity of ownership of experiences - "It's all mine - my body, my mind, my thoughts, my decisions, my actions, my choices, my preferences, my pain, my suffering, my accomplishments and failures, etc etc - everything is mine." It is the very source of an imagined separation from all that is, completely imaginary, completely fabricated and maintained from the mind stream of thought content and completely untrue."
9) Would you say, unequivocally, that you have seen through the illusion of separate self?
I would say unequivocally that I see through the illusion of a separate self. But tomorrow? Who knows? :-)
10) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?
Sorry about the length - it's the shortest version I've managed so far...
Humans experience themselves as being separate from the world and others - as a separate independent part of life. This experience is based upon ideas that each person is a separate owner, doer, and experiencer of his life and the world with free will and choice and personal responsibility for his choices and actions. These ideas are taught to us when we are small naive children by parents and others who believe them to be true. These ideas are actively and continually reinforced by our memories and language based thoughts and interactions with other humans who believe the same ideas. Thus it is a socially constructed self/world/life view. Because humans primarily think to understand or interpret themselves and their experiences and because language itself is constructed to presume the truth of this world view, most humans never question these ideas. Humans created language which presumes and reflects these ideas as being true with its subject/verb/object structure and words such as I, me, myself, self, you, etc. These words serve as the subject in the subject verb object schema; therefore, these words point to the idea that there is a real separate person owning, performing, and experiencing all the various experiences of life. However all these ideas are false. Life does not really work this way, and there actually is no such thing as a separate me or you. We simply do not exist as the individual person we think we are. These ideas along with language based thought and memories creates and actively maintains the illusion of a fictional imaginary story character called me or you or I or Jerry. Our name and these subjective pronouns just point to the idea that we exist as a real entity, but no such entity can actually be found to exist in direct experience. With some honest research, we can discover the truth of this assertion. With direct experience we can see what is really here (all the experiences and actions of life such as sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts, feelings, sensations, actions, decisions, etc) and what has been assumed or imagined to be here (the imaginary me or you who owns, experiences, and does these actions, decisions, etc). We can discover that these ideas of ownership and doer-ship are not true, that we are not separate entities separate from our experiences of life and we never were. We can discover that the only place to find a self or self image is in our memory based thought stream which presumes and infers it to exist separate from the rest of life. We can discover that life is actually directly experienced as a unitary interdependent whole doing itself with no independent entities such as you or me doing, owning, or experiencing life. This allows for the dropping of the heavy burdens, struggle, confusion, and stress associated with an incorrect self/world/life view with its inferred responsibilities of ownership, doer-ship, and free will. This is real freedom, real peace.
Re: Guide Request
Hi Fred,
Quick correction to the last sentence of the first question. It should read, "No, there is no change in the experience of the real which seems to be unaffected by all the thoughts supporting the imaginary self idea.
Quick correction to the last sentence of the first question. It should read, "No, there is no change in the experience of the real which seems to be unaffected by all the thoughts supporting the imaginary self idea.
Re: Guide Request
Hi Jerry
Thanks for your clear and detailed answers. I am now going to ask you our usual six summing-up questions. When we are both happy with your answers, I will invite other guides to take a look at our conversation.
Take your time with these, contemplate them. Look into what is alive, here and now. Be as detailed as you like and don’t forget examples for question 5. Some may repeat themselves from the last questions you answered. Don't hesitate to copy/paste some of your answers if needed.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
I look forward to your answers !
Warm wishes,
Fred
Thanks for your clear and detailed answers. I am now going to ask you our usual six summing-up questions. When we are both happy with your answers, I will invite other guides to take a look at our conversation.
Take your time with these, contemplate them. Look into what is alive, here and now. Be as detailed as you like and don’t forget examples for question 5. Some may repeat themselves from the last questions you answered. Don't hesitate to copy/paste some of your answers if needed.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
I look forward to your answers !
Warm wishes,
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts
Re: Guide Request
Hi Fred,
Still working on these answers.
Warmly,
Jerry
Still working on these answers.
Warmly,
Jerry
Re: Guide Request
Ok Jerry, thanks for letting me know.
Warm wishes
Fred
Warm wishes
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts
Re: Guide Request
Hi Fred,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Is there a Santa Claus or Spider Man? One sees that the self is imaginary in a similar way. However, if one believes the imaginary self to be a real entity, then an imaginary self with its story of separation, confusion and suffering happens. It is a simultaneous arising of self and suffering, world view, etc. It is a 'self-consistent, self-reinforcing' imaginary belief system where real experience arises and is interpreted to create the illusion. Consistent with this imaginary view is real discomfort, confusion, anxiety, and stress experiences. But, this separate entity cannot be found in direct experience at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form. The only evidence for its existence is found in the contents of thought and the remembered self-image story of thoughts and associated feelings which presume its existence.
So, no there is no separate entity called self, me, or I, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form other than imagination, and there never was. I was never born. I will never die.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Humans experience themselves as being separate from the world and others - as a separate independent part of life. This experience is based upon ideas that each person is a separate owner, doer, and experiencer of his life and the world with free will and choice and personal responsibility for his choices and actions. These ideas are taught to us when we are small naive children by parents and others who believe them to be true. These ideas are actively and continually reinforced by our memories and language based thoughts and interactions with other humans who believe the same ideas. Thus it is a socially constructed self/world/life view. Because humans primarily think to understand or interpret themselves and their experiences and because language itself is constructed to presume the truth of this world view, most humans never question these ideas. Humans created language which presumes and reflects these ideas as being true with its subject/verb/object structure and words such as I, me, myself, self, you, etc. These words serve as the subject in the subject verb object schema; therefore, these words point to the idea that there is a real separate person owning, performing, and experiencing all the various experiences of life. However all these ideas are false. Life does not really work this way, and there actually is no such thing as a separate me or you. We simply do not exist as the individual person we think we are. These ideas along with language based thought and memories creates and actively maintains the illusion of a fictional imaginary story character called me or you or I or Jerry. These thoughts to interpret what is happening especially in terms of our social interactions create the self-image believed to be a real entity within the body and brain with learned character traits and preferences. Our name and these subjective pronouns just point to the idea that we exist as a real entity, but no such entity can actually be found to exist in direct experience. With some honest research, we can discover the truth of this assertion. With direct experience we can see what is really here (all the experiences and actions of life such as sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts, feelings, sensations, actions, decisions, etc) and what has been assumed or imagined to be here (the imaginary me or you who owns, experiences, and does these actions, decisions, etc). We can discover that these ideas of ownership and doer-ship are not true, that we are not separate entities separate from our experiences of life and we never were. We can discover that the only place to find a self or self image is in our memory based thought stream which presumes and infers it to exist separate from the rest of life. We can discover that life is actually directly experienced as a unitary interdependent whole doing itself with no independent entities such as you or me doing, owning, or experiencing life. This allows for the dropping of the heavy burdens, struggle, confusion, and stress associated with an incorrect self/world/life view with its inferred responsibilities of ownership, doer-ship, and free will. This is real freedom, real peace. With this realization it is seen that even the lying mind stream is part of the living truth.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The first glimpse was startling, astonishing and quite unsettling. Even that first thought, "Oh, its nothing more than an idea. I don't even exist? It's all just imagination?" That was the beginning of the end of a very very long search. This occurred prior to joining the LU forum. I had already been looking for the me for quite a long time. I joined the forum to really put 'myself' in a situation that would require a thorough review with help from someone who knew both the map and the territory. To make sure I was seeing all this clearly and not just fooling myself somehow. So, I began the interactions in the forum already seeing this but not fully or clearly understanding some of the distinctions between map and territory. The initial astonishment has passed, but it still seems very odd. On the one hand it feels very obvious and simple - on the other hand it still feels unsettling, freeing, and weird to not exist while still retaining the remnants of a 50 yr old illusion - the mentally constructed self identity program still running; although very much weakened and no longer believed. It feels essentially the same, and different. In the past few days with your guidance, I have looked in a consistent way at all the facets of the imaginary self as the doer, owner, and experiencer of life to bring more clarity to seeing every facet of the imaginary self observed as imaginary- including the one who is looking or aware of what is happening. To tell a story, about what is taking place, I would describe it as a kind of gradual appreciation for the IRRELEVANCE of the sense of self, the imagined self, whatever it is called. It's like seeing that when santa claus and the easter bunny were believed in, they seemed relevant to what was happening, but when known to be imaginary, they simply are no longer relevant to experience. Similarly there was a time in my teens when the belief in Christianity seemed relevant and real, and even after it was no longer really believed in, there were still many years of going to church and just going along with the convention although it had lost any power to significantly influence as something real - it too for many years has been completely irrelevant to experience. So it seems also with this imaginary self concept, now seen that it is not real, it is simply losing its ability to be relevant to what is happening. The self-referencing thoughts and feelings, that sense of being an individual person is a bit like seeing someone in a santa claus suit - just irrelevant. From my experience of the past few days, one thing that does seem a bit surprising is the lack of a dramatic change or shift in perception - I guess that's something I was expecting to happen. I was already enjoying a quiet, peaceful, and delightful life, there is even more peace and joy and a content feeling of resolution of the 'me issue' that had created confusion and a sense of longing, a sense that something was missing or just not quite right. Now that search for the 'me issue' resolution has ended, and there is a lightness of being and curiosity about how this realization will unfold in the future, and that is good enough for now. There is also a slight change in perception where experience is seen more holistically with less apparent separation. It feels like a new beginning with some old baggage still being carried.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
As stated in the previous answer, I was already looking for 'me.' I had been looking for me primarily as the experiencer and thinker for quite a long time and never finding anything other than experiences and thoughts. So with this interacting journey with LU, it was more of the same looking and not finding; but it had only recently really become clear that there was nothing to find - In the past, I was looking to find something, the real me as something else like pure awareness for example. There was a misconception that I would find something as an object of experience that would transcend subject/object duality. I really believed I was suppose to find 'something within' that would be recognized as some sort of transcendent me. I never looked to clearly see that I simply was not there. So, I really cannot say what pushed me over or made me look, I have been told this so many times and in so many ways for so many years, so, I don't know, it just happened, and now it is clearly seen…
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decisions and choices happen without the unnecessary belief in a decider or chooser. The 'decider' or the 'chooser' cannot actually be found although decisions and choices are constantly happening. Some decisions perhaps many decisions and choices happen in a completely unconscious way, completely automatic - such as decisions made while playing sports or driving a car. There are other decisions or choices which are more conscious and may require additional thoughts to arrive at a decision due to personal or external factors to consider. e.g Deciding where to go for lunch. There are many factors which may be considered before the decision happens.
Free will or free choice is an illusionary component of the illusion of self. There is no such thing as free will or choice. This illusory concept is irrelevant when seen that there is no self to have free will.
Intention is an interesting word which implies a kind of focus or resolve to do a specific task which usually involves the concept of time as well. The concept tends to be associated with what is happening now and even more so the idea of a task that will take time to complete. For example, for me there has been a very long term intention to follow a spiritual path, to discover what I am, who I am, and what It's all about. This has been the primary focus for me for the past 20yrs - sometimes an all consuming preoccupation like a compulsion, and sometimes less so. There have been so many times when the thought, "No matter what happens, even if it requires death, just let me know or experience reality." It felt like a love affair with the mysterious unknown - sometimes passionate, ecstatic, sometimes frustrating and depressing. There was also the intention to go through this process with LU to see more clearly, to see what would happen, to help focus attention, to complete the process no matter what happened. Intention seems to have a certain body sensation associated with it, like a kind of tension, and it appears to imply there is someone who is doing the intending, but actually there is no one doing the intending. Focus of attention happens, a sense of resolve can happen, but no one doing it.
Control is another interesting word which implies that some one or something is doing the controlling. For example, the thermostat controls the temperature. Or while driving, I am in control of the direction and speed of the car. In both cases, there is an interaction taking place which might be called control, so in that sense control is happening just as thinking is happening. Neither control nor thinking require a controller or thinker, just imaginary subjects to describe what is happening. So like intention, the controller and the controlled concepts actually combine to form the one activity of control that is happening through the dependent interactions of each.
What makes things happen? How does it work? The truest answer I can offer is, "I don't know." And I question whether it really can be known. I can provide a different conceptual framework which seems more consistent with what is directly observed in direct experience, although even this revised framework or self/world/life view is not the ultimate answer. In this revised framework, life is an undivided unitary interdependent whole. One happening. From the big bang till now story. There are no separate entities doing and owning life experiences. There is just life - experiences happening, and the experiences happening from this perspective reflect this seamless undivided wholeness or unity.
'I' as a non-existent self am responsible for nothing because 'I' do not exist. Responsibility is yet another illusory self-consistent component of the illusion of self as a free agent with free will and choice and responsibility. Actions and apparent consequences of actions appear to happen in time, but there is no such thing as personal responsibility for what is happening.
6) Anything to add?
Thank you. This process has helped make this very clear.
Warm wishes,
Jerry
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Is there a Santa Claus or Spider Man? One sees that the self is imaginary in a similar way. However, if one believes the imaginary self to be a real entity, then an imaginary self with its story of separation, confusion and suffering happens. It is a simultaneous arising of self and suffering, world view, etc. It is a 'self-consistent, self-reinforcing' imaginary belief system where real experience arises and is interpreted to create the illusion. Consistent with this imaginary view is real discomfort, confusion, anxiety, and stress experiences. But, this separate entity cannot be found in direct experience at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form. The only evidence for its existence is found in the contents of thought and the remembered self-image story of thoughts and associated feelings which presume its existence.
So, no there is no separate entity called self, me, or I, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form other than imagination, and there never was. I was never born. I will never die.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Humans experience themselves as being separate from the world and others - as a separate independent part of life. This experience is based upon ideas that each person is a separate owner, doer, and experiencer of his life and the world with free will and choice and personal responsibility for his choices and actions. These ideas are taught to us when we are small naive children by parents and others who believe them to be true. These ideas are actively and continually reinforced by our memories and language based thoughts and interactions with other humans who believe the same ideas. Thus it is a socially constructed self/world/life view. Because humans primarily think to understand or interpret themselves and their experiences and because language itself is constructed to presume the truth of this world view, most humans never question these ideas. Humans created language which presumes and reflects these ideas as being true with its subject/verb/object structure and words such as I, me, myself, self, you, etc. These words serve as the subject in the subject verb object schema; therefore, these words point to the idea that there is a real separate person owning, performing, and experiencing all the various experiences of life. However all these ideas are false. Life does not really work this way, and there actually is no such thing as a separate me or you. We simply do not exist as the individual person we think we are. These ideas along with language based thought and memories creates and actively maintains the illusion of a fictional imaginary story character called me or you or I or Jerry. These thoughts to interpret what is happening especially in terms of our social interactions create the self-image believed to be a real entity within the body and brain with learned character traits and preferences. Our name and these subjective pronouns just point to the idea that we exist as a real entity, but no such entity can actually be found to exist in direct experience. With some honest research, we can discover the truth of this assertion. With direct experience we can see what is really here (all the experiences and actions of life such as sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts, feelings, sensations, actions, decisions, etc) and what has been assumed or imagined to be here (the imaginary me or you who owns, experiences, and does these actions, decisions, etc). We can discover that these ideas of ownership and doer-ship are not true, that we are not separate entities separate from our experiences of life and we never were. We can discover that the only place to find a self or self image is in our memory based thought stream which presumes and infers it to exist separate from the rest of life. We can discover that life is actually directly experienced as a unitary interdependent whole doing itself with no independent entities such as you or me doing, owning, or experiencing life. This allows for the dropping of the heavy burdens, struggle, confusion, and stress associated with an incorrect self/world/life view with its inferred responsibilities of ownership, doer-ship, and free will. This is real freedom, real peace. With this realization it is seen that even the lying mind stream is part of the living truth.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The first glimpse was startling, astonishing and quite unsettling. Even that first thought, "Oh, its nothing more than an idea. I don't even exist? It's all just imagination?" That was the beginning of the end of a very very long search. This occurred prior to joining the LU forum. I had already been looking for the me for quite a long time. I joined the forum to really put 'myself' in a situation that would require a thorough review with help from someone who knew both the map and the territory. To make sure I was seeing all this clearly and not just fooling myself somehow. So, I began the interactions in the forum already seeing this but not fully or clearly understanding some of the distinctions between map and territory. The initial astonishment has passed, but it still seems very odd. On the one hand it feels very obvious and simple - on the other hand it still feels unsettling, freeing, and weird to not exist while still retaining the remnants of a 50 yr old illusion - the mentally constructed self identity program still running; although very much weakened and no longer believed. It feels essentially the same, and different. In the past few days with your guidance, I have looked in a consistent way at all the facets of the imaginary self as the doer, owner, and experiencer of life to bring more clarity to seeing every facet of the imaginary self observed as imaginary- including the one who is looking or aware of what is happening. To tell a story, about what is taking place, I would describe it as a kind of gradual appreciation for the IRRELEVANCE of the sense of self, the imagined self, whatever it is called. It's like seeing that when santa claus and the easter bunny were believed in, they seemed relevant to what was happening, but when known to be imaginary, they simply are no longer relevant to experience. Similarly there was a time in my teens when the belief in Christianity seemed relevant and real, and even after it was no longer really believed in, there were still many years of going to church and just going along with the convention although it had lost any power to significantly influence as something real - it too for many years has been completely irrelevant to experience. So it seems also with this imaginary self concept, now seen that it is not real, it is simply losing its ability to be relevant to what is happening. The self-referencing thoughts and feelings, that sense of being an individual person is a bit like seeing someone in a santa claus suit - just irrelevant. From my experience of the past few days, one thing that does seem a bit surprising is the lack of a dramatic change or shift in perception - I guess that's something I was expecting to happen. I was already enjoying a quiet, peaceful, and delightful life, there is even more peace and joy and a content feeling of resolution of the 'me issue' that had created confusion and a sense of longing, a sense that something was missing or just not quite right. Now that search for the 'me issue' resolution has ended, and there is a lightness of being and curiosity about how this realization will unfold in the future, and that is good enough for now. There is also a slight change in perception where experience is seen more holistically with less apparent separation. It feels like a new beginning with some old baggage still being carried.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
As stated in the previous answer, I was already looking for 'me.' I had been looking for me primarily as the experiencer and thinker for quite a long time and never finding anything other than experiences and thoughts. So with this interacting journey with LU, it was more of the same looking and not finding; but it had only recently really become clear that there was nothing to find - In the past, I was looking to find something, the real me as something else like pure awareness for example. There was a misconception that I would find something as an object of experience that would transcend subject/object duality. I really believed I was suppose to find 'something within' that would be recognized as some sort of transcendent me. I never looked to clearly see that I simply was not there. So, I really cannot say what pushed me over or made me look, I have been told this so many times and in so many ways for so many years, so, I don't know, it just happened, and now it is clearly seen…
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decisions and choices happen without the unnecessary belief in a decider or chooser. The 'decider' or the 'chooser' cannot actually be found although decisions and choices are constantly happening. Some decisions perhaps many decisions and choices happen in a completely unconscious way, completely automatic - such as decisions made while playing sports or driving a car. There are other decisions or choices which are more conscious and may require additional thoughts to arrive at a decision due to personal or external factors to consider. e.g Deciding where to go for lunch. There are many factors which may be considered before the decision happens.
Free will or free choice is an illusionary component of the illusion of self. There is no such thing as free will or choice. This illusory concept is irrelevant when seen that there is no self to have free will.
Intention is an interesting word which implies a kind of focus or resolve to do a specific task which usually involves the concept of time as well. The concept tends to be associated with what is happening now and even more so the idea of a task that will take time to complete. For example, for me there has been a very long term intention to follow a spiritual path, to discover what I am, who I am, and what It's all about. This has been the primary focus for me for the past 20yrs - sometimes an all consuming preoccupation like a compulsion, and sometimes less so. There have been so many times when the thought, "No matter what happens, even if it requires death, just let me know or experience reality." It felt like a love affair with the mysterious unknown - sometimes passionate, ecstatic, sometimes frustrating and depressing. There was also the intention to go through this process with LU to see more clearly, to see what would happen, to help focus attention, to complete the process no matter what happened. Intention seems to have a certain body sensation associated with it, like a kind of tension, and it appears to imply there is someone who is doing the intending, but actually there is no one doing the intending. Focus of attention happens, a sense of resolve can happen, but no one doing it.
Control is another interesting word which implies that some one or something is doing the controlling. For example, the thermostat controls the temperature. Or while driving, I am in control of the direction and speed of the car. In both cases, there is an interaction taking place which might be called control, so in that sense control is happening just as thinking is happening. Neither control nor thinking require a controller or thinker, just imaginary subjects to describe what is happening. So like intention, the controller and the controlled concepts actually combine to form the one activity of control that is happening through the dependent interactions of each.
What makes things happen? How does it work? The truest answer I can offer is, "I don't know." And I question whether it really can be known. I can provide a different conceptual framework which seems more consistent with what is directly observed in direct experience, although even this revised framework or self/world/life view is not the ultimate answer. In this revised framework, life is an undivided unitary interdependent whole. One happening. From the big bang till now story. There are no separate entities doing and owning life experiences. There is just life - experiences happening, and the experiences happening from this perspective reflect this seamless undivided wholeness or unity.
'I' as a non-existent self am responsible for nothing because 'I' do not exist. Responsibility is yet another illusory self-consistent component of the illusion of self as a free agent with free will and choice and responsibility. Actions and apparent consequences of actions appear to happen in time, but there is no such thing as personal responsibility for what is happening.
6) Anything to add?
Thank you. This process has helped make this very clear.
Warm wishes,
Jerry
Re: Guide Request
Thanks for your detailed answers, Jerry.
I will now invite other guides to take a look. I'll be in touch shortly with or without further questions!
Warm wishes
Fred
I will now invite other guides to take a look. I'll be in touch shortly with or without further questions!
Warm wishes
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts
Re: Guide Request
Hi again Jerry
Three other guides have looked at our thread and confirmed that your answers are clear. No more questions from them. I will now send you a private message about what comes next! Check your inbox!
I want to thank you for this exchange. It was a real pleasure and privilege to accompany you in this investigation.
Warm wishes
Fred
Three other guides have looked at our thread and confirmed that your answers are clear. No more questions from them. I will now send you a private message about what comes next! Check your inbox!
I want to thank you for this exchange. It was a real pleasure and privilege to accompany you in this investigation.
Warm wishes
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts
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