Need a guide please

[thompson7]

OK, go to this sensation directly. Examine it from every possible angle.

What is this sensation?
Where and how is this sensation felt?
Find the ‘I’ in the background.

If there were an ‘I’ that it should be easy to find. Do you struggle a lot to find the food on the dinner plate, the laptop, the body, or even a thought?

I have to admit I laughed!, looking and looking and throwing loads of different thoughts about as to what I/it could be when theres quite clearly nothing there. A sensation born of thought - of thinking I was there. That was the only thing that could be found, and then that went away as well...

Look for that ‘thing’ that is being aware of the body?
Where is it exactly?

At the moment it fells like just the body being the body. Just doing its thing, no-one studying whats happening. hard to describe

So, what is this searching?
Is there an ‘entity’, a ‘thing’ doing the searching, or searching just happens by itself, without a doer, or an owner (you)?

Just thoughts. popping up by themselves. seems like there isnt/wasnt even any searching actully happening. just the idea of it.

Let’s examine this a bit more deeply.

If awareness is outside of thoughts, and outside of the 5 senses then how it is know that it is there?
How it is experienced then, if it cannot be experienced?

absolutely no idea. it just is

What if that this awareness is just a mental label, a thought attached to the actual experience?
When you say you are aware, how is this known?

In the actual experience, there is seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling, tasting and noticing thoughts.

Where is awareness in seeing?
Where is awareness in hearing?
Where is awareness in touching/feeling?
Where is awareness in smelling?
Where is awareness in tasting?

Don’t just think about these, but actually LOOK with each question. Look at the screen and search for the awareness. Listen to the sounds and search for the awareness. Same with all the senses.

What if ‘awareness’ is just a thought that suggest “there is an awareness”?
Is there REALLY?

no, just more thoughts again. awareness happens but there is not a solid thing behind the senses except signals being received by the brain. Nothing there when thoughts are not.

“I don’t have to think to be aware” – yes, this is true on the level of thoughts. But this is just a thought. What happens when you ignore all thoughts, alongside with the thoughts about awareness?

Brief silence and a feeling of relaxation.

These are thoughts, stories. What is behind the story? What is prior-to-thoughts?

nothing

I thought I was the awareness witnessing everything - but thats just ideas. Theres just everything.

Thank you

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

I have to admit I laughed!, looking and looking and throwing loads of different thoughts about as to what I/it could be when theres quite clearly nothing there. A sensation born of thought - of thinking I was there. That was the only thing that could be found, and then that went away as well...

Very good looking :)

no, just more thoughts again. awareness happens but there is not a solid thing behind the senses except signals being received by the brain. Nothing there when thoughts are not.

How is this known that “signals being received by the brain”?
How brain is experienced, by which of the 5 senses?
How “signals being received by the brain” is experienced?

Can we say that awareness-ing is happening but it is not done by anything, it just happens by ‘itself’?

Let’s examine now how a decision is made. Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire …

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling 'I' be located?
What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

How the decision is made?

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

How is this known that “signals being received by the brain”?
How brain is experienced, by which of the 5 senses?
How “signals being received by the brain” is experienced?

If I burn my hand it moves before the thoughts turn up, and I was told in school that this is because of nerves and autonomic reactions. So my knowing of this is based of that memory and me pretty much imagining the process. Not the greatest kind of knowing. More thoughts.

The brain itself is experienced by none of the five senses.

Signals are recieived and things happen - but its not really expeirenced, until labels are applied to sensations afterwards.

Can we say that awareness-ing is happening but it is not done by anything, it just happens by ‘itself’?

Yes, awareness is happening.

Let’s examine now how a decision is made. Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire …

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?

Muscles and nerves etc, but thats not "I". I can watch it go up and down and thoughts do not have to preceed its movement.

Can a controlling 'I' be located?

Nope

What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?

There isnt one

Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

no.

How the decision is made?

I have no idea.

I had a beer after work this evening and I feel me looking may have been a bit worse for it.

Tom

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

If I burn my hand it moves before the thoughts turn up, and I was told in school that this is because of nerves and autonomic reactions. So my knowing of this is based of that memory and me pretty much imagining the process. Not the greatest kind of knowing. More thoughts.

Yes, this is a nice story, but still just a story. Nothing more than the content of arising thoughts. It is important to be able to distinguish between the actual experience and the arising thoughts and mental images that are trying to interpret and assign meaning to the experience (to everything all the time).

The brain itself is experienced by none of the five senses.

So, does the brain perform any activities, is this the actual experience?
Or the brain doing thing is just a thought believed?

Signals are recieived and things happen - but its not really expeirenced, until labels are applied to sensations afterwards.

Just because AFTER the experiencing thoughts come up suggesting “signals are received and thus things happen”, does this label have any effect on the happening?

Is “signal are received and thus things happen” actually experienced, or is this just a nice thought-story arising AFTER the experience, that is not seen only as a thought label, but rather it is believed?

Muscles and nerves etc, but thats not "I".

Again, can you see that “muscles and nerves” are just a thought-story, but not the actual experience?

I had a beer after work this evening and I feel me looking may have been a bit worse for it.

:) Thank you for your honesty. I’d like to ask you to do the exercise again more carefully, particularly paying attention to all mental labels (thoughts) and images that are trying to interpret the experience.

What is the pure, raw experience without mental stories and images?

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

So, does the brain perform any activities, is this the actual experience?
Or the brain doing thing is just a thought believed?

The brain doesnt issue any commands. Again I was told it is involved and I bought into this
theory but there is no experiance of this.

Just because AFTER the experiencing thoughts come up suggesting “signals are received and thus things happen”, does this label have any effect on the happening?

No.

Is “signal are received and thus things happen” actually experienced, or is this just a nice thought-story arising AFTER the experience, that is not seen only as a thought label, but rather it is believed?

Yes, only the experiance happens. Signals being received and the biological process are a long standing fictional representaion.

Again, can you see that “muscles and nerves” are just a thought-story, but not the actual experience?

Most definatly.

What is the pure, raw experience without mental stories and images?

Arm goes up, arm goes down - very little actual experiance. No decision is made prior. Like an unplanned response to whats going on.

Tom

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

You’ve done a good looking. :) Let’s examine the body and time now.

Body
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

Time
What is time?
How time is experienced with the 5 senses?
What is past and future?
How past or future is experienced with the 5 senses?
Does past or future ‘exists’ other than content of thoughts?
Is there a proof that you had dinner last night?
Is there any proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

Hi Vivian,

Im doing a split shift at work today and have been unable to fully focus on the questions at hand, so I'll give a full reply tomorrow if thats ok. I have been doing some looking while at work though for a fair while. It is quite refreshing and made things less stressful, which is awesome!.


Tom

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

Thank you for letting me know. I’m looking forward to your reply.

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

Hi Vivien,

I did some looking for a good while today. here you go...

Body
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:


Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, theres nothing to compare it against.

Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?

I can feel touch of the chair against the body - but this dosent confir weight.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

The skin touches the clothing but its not really a boundary as its part of the body.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No just the sensation of it.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Even with all the stimulus of touch I cannot detect a shape or form without resorting to imagination to piece it together.

Is there an inside or outside?

The exterior and the interior of the body can be detected. But its all body, so yes but they are sensed both together.

What is the body in the actual experience?

A number of touch sensations, the taste of oranges (Just had one), the odd gurgle in the body.

Time
What is time?

A way of measuring existence so we can explain past and future.

How time is experienced with the 5 senses?

It isnt really.

What is past and future?

To the senses, nothing. Memory and creativity to the mind.

How past or future is experienced with the 5 senses?

It isnt.

Does past or future ‘exists’ other than content of thoughts?

Things age, but the fact that things age is not past itself. Future is just imagination... neither exist outside thought.

Is there a proof that you had dinner last night?

No proof with the four available senses.

Is there any proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?

When looking with eyes closed there is none.


Tom

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

I can feel touch of the chair against the body - but this dosent confir weight.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a ‘chair’ or a ‘body’?
Can it be REALLY felt the “touch of the chair against the body”, or is there only a pure sensation, just feeling/touching?
“I can feel touch of the chair against the body” – can this be just the content of an arising thought and mental images about “a chair and a body”?
If all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘chair’ or a ‘body’?

The skin touches the clothing but its not really a boundary as its part of the body.

In the actual pure sensation, is there a ‘skin’ or ‘clothing’?
In the actual experience, does the skin (subject) doing the touching of clothing (object), or is there ONLY touching?

Even with all the stimulus of touch I cannot detect a shape or form without resorting to imagination to piece it together.

Good LOOKing.

The exterior and the interior of the body can be detected. But its all body, so yes but they are sensed both together.

With which of the five senses can “the exterior and the interior of the body be detected”?
“The exterior and the interior of the body can be detected” – can this be the content of an arising mental images and the thought interpretation about the mental images?
When all mental images and thoughts are ignored, is there an inside or outside in the actual experience?

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

Hi Vivian...

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a ‘chair’ or a ‘body’?
Can it be REALLY felt the “touch of the chair against the body”, or is there only a pure sensation, just feeling/touching?
“I can feel touch of the chair against the body” – can this be just the content of an arising thought and mental images about “a chair and a body”?
If all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘chair’ or a ‘body’?

Just the sensation itself does not show the body, when looking again it looks like that was a memory of what I expected to be there again.
There is just the sensation , it seems all this talk of a chair and body was based on thoughts and ideas.
So when looking and not being engaged by thoughts there is no chair and body presented to awareness.

In the actual pure sensation, is there a ‘skin’ or ‘clothing’?
In the actual experience, does the skin (subject) doing the touching of clothing (object), or is there ONLY touching?

There is only the touching and yet more imaginary stuff. When looking fully both ideas are seen as just that, ideas.

With which of the five senses can “the exterior and the interior of the body be detected”?
“The exterior and the interior of the body can be detected” – can this be the content of an arising mental images and the thought interpretation about the mental images?
When all mental images and thoughts are ignored, is there an inside or outside in the actual experience?

The exterior and interior can only be detected through the mind not through the experiance.
No inside or outside. Just experiance.
Now, when opening the eyes it doesnt really feel that much different. Except with some visual stuff now. But the ideas and thoughts about the body etc. are still seen as just that - imaginary. The ideas becoming more distant by themselves.

Tom

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

There is just the sensation , it seems all this talk of a chair and body was based on thoughts and ideas.

Good LOOKing

So when looking and not being engaged by thoughts there is no chair and body presented to awareness.

With which of the 5 senses ‘awareness’ is experienced?
What is ‘awareness’ in the immediate, actual experience?
How is this known that “…. presented to awareness”?
Can that “…. presented to awareness” is just the content of an arising thought that is believed and not seen only as a thought?

The exterior and interior can only be detected through the mind not through the experiance.

How is this known that “exterior and interior can only be detected through the mind”?
What is the mind in the actual experience?
With which of the 5 senses the mind is experienced?
Is there really a mind, or is ‘mind’ is just a thought label?

No inside or outside. Just experiance.
Now, when opening the eyes it doesnt really feel that much different. Except with some visual stuff now. But the ideas and thoughts about the body etc. are still seen as just that - imaginary. The ideas becoming more distant by themselves.

Good observations.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

With which of the 5 senses ‘awareness’ is experienced?
What is ‘awareness’ in the immediate, actual experience?
How is this known that “…. presented to awareness”?
Can that “…. presented to awareness” is just the content of an arising thought that is believed and not seen only as a thought?

Awareness it not experienced with any of the five senses, awareness is just aware.

Things are only presented to it when thoughts come in. What I ment was: " when not being engaged by thoughts, there is no chair and body presented" As the chair and body are constructs of the imagination.

How is this known that “exterior and interior can only be detected through the mind”?
What is the mind in the actual experience?
With which of the 5 senses the mind is experienced?
Is there really a mind, or is ‘mind’ is just a thought label?

It is known as thought.
The mind in the experiance is barely there, it throws up ideas here and there, but they are seen as ideas and have no faith invested in them.
The mind is experianced by no senses, it is another thought. Or a load of them all piled up sometimes. Just thoughts. I used to think I had to get into the right state of mind to understand - but now that seems mad. Throwing more thoughts at a problem caused by beliving too strongly in a thought to start with.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Yes there is no I, Just lots of natural functions and a constant habit of naming everything.
The choosing happens like a heartbeat or a blink of the eye - its everythings natural reaction to the present circumstance. There is no thought to choose or pick.

I had a brief eureka moment when I saw that all I could identify with when im looking was looking itself. It then felt that trying to deduce any problem was to make it worse and all the things I was attempting to figure out kind of fizzled away. Enlightenment and everything! The Idea that there is anyone to achive something vanished. In the next couple of days the investment in thoughts returned frequently, but what I saw seemed to do something. And now im just a little more interested in just looking at stuff without grabbing onto the labels the mind throws up.

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?
Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

No I that is responsible.
Others do not have reponsibilities in the sense that there is no one there to be doing the reponding. Everything happens, without the assumed mental identitys controlling things.

Not really confused with any of this - just keep getting caught up in thoughts - trying to work it out for a second and then dropping the whole thing as I remember what I saw. But now its like I can see a way out (that there is no way - or nothing to get out of anything) of thoughts. Getting used to the new perspective.

Thanks very much

Love, Tom

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

Awareness it not experienced with any of the five senses, awareness is just aware.

REALLY? Are you sure about this?

How is this known that awareness is just aware?
Does awareness (subject) ‘doing’ aware-ing of sensations, thoughts (object)?
Or awareness is just another mental label attached to the experience?
Is there REALLY an awareness ‘doing’ aware-ing, or there is ONLY aware-ing?

Things are only presented to it when thoughts come in.

How all of this is known?

So, awareness is a subject to which things (objects) could be presented?
Is there a subject (awareness, consciousness, I, me, self, a ‘thing’) of any kind in the actual experience?

Don’t think about the answer, but look. This is just intellectual information learned from readings/teachers.
But is this REALLY the actual experience?

What I ment was: " when not being engaged by thoughts, there is no chair and body presented"

How is this known?

The mind in the experiance is barely there, it throws up ideas here and there,

How all of this is known?

You wrote later: “The mind is experienced by no senses, it is another thought.”

So, how can the ‘mind’ be in the experience (barely or not barely)?
If the ‘mind’ is just another thought then how can it throw up ideas?
Can a thought do anything?
Is the ‘mind’ a ‘thing’ with volition?

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

Hi vivien,

Im unable to post properly tonight, but ill be back tomorrow!


Tom