Guide Request

[Freddi]

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for your answer to my first question. You’re right. An amazing display of thoughts there. And no real answer came forward, but no worries.

Drop the other questions and let’s take this exploration somewhere else.

I would like you to go somewhere and sit still. Out in nature is good, but it does not have to be.
Take a notebook with you. Give me a ten-minute 'Slice of Life'. Write down all that is experienced. Just what is happening, what is alive, right now. Notice what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted, touched. Write it all down, without discrimination or selection.
If a thought pops up, just write it down as ‘the thought that …’, don’t get involved with the content of it, that is not the purpose of this exercise. Just let it pass like a train that you do not board.
Let me have what you write.
All that happening of the moment, that's WHAT IS, everything else is mental projection, WHAT IS NOT.
In all this happening, can you see/find a separate entity, a ‘me’, experiencing the world from behind the eyes? Or is ‘Jerry’ part of this unfolding of the moment?

Take a good, honest look. That is really all it takes.

Thanks!

Fred

[bfltsns15]

Hi Fred,

Not sure what happened to your last posted instructions. 'I' don't see your last post on this thread. Don't know why.

Anyway, the task of 10 minute slice of life instruction was easy.

Here it is:

paper, boot, grass hands, pen writing, bird sounds, car sounds, breathing, bang sound, grass, sun, field, clouds, trees, mountains, body sensation, sensation around eyes, clouds moving across the sky, bird sounds, trees, feeling of pressure against butt, airplane sound, bird sounds, gnat flying by, grass field, car sound, airplane sounds, sensation in eyes, bird flying across the sky, wind blowing the trees, wind blowing the grass, clouds moving, butterfly, gnat, weed, shirt, hands, leg, boot, grass, ground, butt feeling, back sensation, leg sensation, foot sensation, pen, words, notebook, lines, bird sounds, bird flying across the sky, mountain, clouds, sunshine, dog barking, bird sounds, geese sounds, butt sensation, foot sensation, geese sounds, dog barking, clouds moving, car sound, sunshine, thought about..., bird sounds, heart sensation, gnat, crackle sound in neck, neck moving sensation, chest sensation, eye sensation, crow sound, bird sound, neck sensation, neck crackle sound, gun sound, chest sensation, bird sounds, cricket sounds, frog sounds, bird flying across the sky, gun sound, gnat, grass field, shirt, hands, paper, pen, clouds, butt sensation, back sensation, foot sensation, frog sounds, legs moving, throat clearing sound and feeling, wind blowing trees, wind sound, car sounds, pressure in leg, wind blowing the grass, wind against hand sensation, wind against neck sensation, wind against face sensation, butt sensation, back sensation, bird sounds, sunshine, fog, body sitting, breath, nose sensation of breath, lip, thought about..., lower body, hands, car sounds, wind sounds, leaves falling, feeling of breeze on face and then neck, finger sensation of holding pen...

Nothing found to call a me...nothing behind the eyes, nothing anywhere to call me.

p.s. this is conceptual, but seems like a sense of self can arise without the need to identify with it as a self. This seems paradoxical, even the sense of self is not a self - just a sense of self...

thanks Fred,

J

[bfltsns15]

OK. There seems to be a problem with posting on the forum. Fred's last post is missing, and my last post did not post. Trying this post as a test to see if it will post.

[bfltsns15]

OK. Never mind. Now 'I' see Fred's last post and 'my' last post.

[Freddi]

Hi Jerry

Nothing found to call a me...nothing behind the eyes, nothing anywhere to call me.

Thank you :-)

p.s. this is conceptual, but seems like a sense of self can arise without the need to identify with it as a self. This seems paradoxical, even the sense of self is not a self - just a sense of self...

Let’s look into this « sense of self » together. For a moment, step out from the mind stream, and come back to your breathing. Notice the seeing, the hearing, the touching, the smelling, the sensing. Notice that sense of aliveness that can’t be described.
What is the sense of self? Is it a thought? Does it have a physical manifestation, whatever it is?

Take a look and let me know what you find.

Thanks!

Fred

PS Maybe you could not see my last post and yours because we are now on page 2?

[bfltsns15]

Hi Fred,

O.K. Out of the mind stream with no thoughts arising...There is just seeing, touching, hearing, smelling, sensing. There are energetic sensations throughout the body. The body feels alive. There is an aliveness, a here-ness, a being-ness. There is the aliveness of the total experience all at once, and more specific aliveness sensations in the body. Nothing more detected without thought.

Thanks,
J

[Freddi]

Hi again, Jerry,

So, to make sure we're clear, you can't find anything under the banner "sense of self", apart from a thought?

Fred

[bfltsns15]

Hi again, Fred,

Yes. This is clear. With the thought, "sense of self," and waiting to see what arises. There is only the sensations in the body and all the other experiences - not an experience with the label "sense of self."

thanks,
j

[Freddi]

OK, thanks.
Now can we go back to our looking into decisions and free will?
Here are the exercises again, to save your having to look them up:

1) On a count of three, raise the left hand or the right hand and observe what happens. 1-2-3. Take a good look. Do you see an entity doing the choosing? Is there a ‘you’ that selects one hand or the other, in your bare experience? Or is there just raising of a hand?
2) Can you choose the moment when ‘you’ fall asleep or ‘you’ wake up? A thought comes up and claims ‘Jerry is getting up’, but what happens, in actuality?
3) Choose a drink, for example tea/coffee/another drink or between a couple of objects (blue pen/black pen/pencil). Really do this, don't imagine you're doing it, that would be just thought stuff. Then sit and see if you can find the ‘self' who made that choice? If so, where exactly did that choice happen? Why was one option selected over another? Can you find a choice point (a location of choosing)? Try to describe the process of 'choosing'. Let me know what you find.

Thanks!

Fred

[bfltsns15]

Hi Fred,

Response to task 1: Did this exercise many times and at different times. No me, no decider or chooser directing the choice in any recognizable way. There is only one hand or the other raising without any other insight into what is happening or how it is being done. One time, both hands simultaneously raised - that was funny - there was no previous intention to do that in awareness.

Response to task 2: No control over going to sleep or waking up. This has been clear for years, learned to just accept those times when sleep isn't coming, usually that acknowledgement and being at peace with not going to sleep, makes the situation and eventual sleep much easier. Same way with awakening, both physically and metaphorically speaking...

Response to task 3: Chose multiple decision experiments throughout the day. Mostly simple ones like choosing between food, and choosing between arbitrary objects. Noticed sometimes when 'I' sat quietly before the choice event, the thought, "I choose..." would come up, so the choice was being anticipated to happen and some claim to an 'I' doing it was already in place before the choice (but only in an imaginary way of course). There were also times when after the choice was made, there was the thought, "I chose this or that." So this 'I' labeling did arise sometimes, but not always, and it was quite irrelevant whether it did or not, although the anticipating thought was a small surprise.

As far as describing the choice process, there is very little insight into it. Sometimes there was a feeling almost like a premonition, like a knowing which way the choice was going to go - like knowing which choice would happen before thought or the event, sometimes it seemed almost like an image of which hand would move, but not really very relevant to whether there is a chooser. Sometimes there were sensations felt in the head associated with choosing, but it is very clear - there is no chooser.

p.s. Thank you for pulling 'us' out of that mind stream whirlpool two days ago. Seems like the non-response response was perfect. No need to jump in that mind stream storm too. In hind sight it seems pretty silly. This mind is quite analytical with training and 25yrs of work as an engineer, so getting the mind stream to calm down has been a very very long term cultivation using tools such as yoga, meditation, contemplation, etc. That's part of the story anyway.

When there is a task viewed as difficult that requires thought, sometimes the thinking gets somewhat compulsive and crazy. That experience had not happened for a while, so it was good to see it again - just as a mind stream storm without any real significance. Easier to see in hindsight though, rather than upon arising.

Looking forward to the next task,

Thanks Fred,
J

[Freddi]

Hi Jerry, thanks for your answers, really enjoying your willingness to look.

No me, no decider or chooser directing the choice in any recognizable way.

Good to notice!

No control over going to sleep or waking up.

Nope, that’s clear.

Same way with awakening, both physically and metaphorically speaking...

Out of interest, what would a ‘metaphorical’ awakening be like? Can you describe that, in direct experience? :-)

Noticed sometimes when 'I' sat quietly before the choice event, the thought, "I choose..." would come up, so the choice was being anticipated to happen and some claim to an 'I' doing it was already in place before the choice

To make sure we’re 100% clear on free will, because it is a big part of the illusion, could you look at another apparent decision-making process in your everyday life and describe it to me, as you see it unfold in real time? Maybe look at how clothes are selected in the morning, or the ingredients of a meal, or which route to take to get somewhere. You can also do this with two different drinks in front of you, or three different coloured pens.
Can you see whether there are some ‘external’ factors taken into account, like habitual preferences, conditioning, weather, etc. then observe, as the thought stream/running commentary says ‘Jerry is selecting a or b’, see what is happening, in actuality? What is observable, verifiable, tangible? Do the thoughts that pop up, like the images you mention (or the thought ‘I choose …’) do the choosing?

Thanks!

Fred

[bfltsns15]

Hi Fred,

Watched many decisions throughout the day unfold - some simple without thought, some more complex with thought, external factors, conditioning, etc.

Here's an example. Wrote this from memory after getting home.

Hunger sensations began while driving a car back home. This brought up labeling such as, "I am hungry. Do I have enough cash, should I go make a cash withdrawal or use my credit card, what route should I take, where do I want to go eat, what do I want to eat, this or that, which way to go, I need to eat more healthy food, I'm not taking good care of myself, etc." So there was watching these labeling thoughts and decisions unfold, and there was no decider found.

With more complex decisions such as this one involving thinking, planning, needs, wants, etc (what to eat, where to eat, route, etc) there is more opportunity for identification. There seems to be some kind of combination of 'I' thought and body sensation together to imply a me deciding, but it is still clear that there is no entity deciding - just thoughts and body sensations, then deciding from nowhere. There seems to be a strong connection between body sensations and identity, but it is just body sensations. It is clear that the images in either visual or word form do not decide, but simply anticipate a decision or label a decision already made.

Some of the other decisions during the day also brought up some personality script thoughts and feelings. This was just noticed, acknowledged, but not really seen as an issue or struggled with.

'I' tried watching when the decision to speak would occur during a conversation, then 'I' started looking for a speaker - 'I' saw that there is a lot of identifying thoughts and feelings going on in conversation and 'I' noticed a strong feeling of me-ness associated with talking, all the feelings and thoughts. 'I' had never noticed identification with speaking before...looking for the talker while talking, there were weird feelings of disorientation and lots of energy flow - cool and unsettling. 'I' was surprised 'I' had never thought about it or looked at speaking this way before. No decider or talker was found, just decisions and talking. Planning to watch conversation more carefully.

'I' have studied this free will illusion for many many years, and had already come to the conclusion that it was an illusion. 'I' remember feeling confident that it was, and discussing it with friends as such. Sure comes in handy when looking back on the past and some of the 'messes' that happened...Less likely to remember this when something 'good' happened or happens... perhaps a bias to avoid blame and responsibility if it's bad and take credit if it is good. This conclusion about free will was not based on the absence of a decider perspective, but more based on life experiences, scientific research, etc. Everything running on autopilot, just doing what it does.

Happy to continue looking at decisions and provide a more detailed account of a decision if you like...

Out of interest, what would a ‘metaphorical’ awakening be like? Can you describe that, in direct experience? :-)

magical powers... :-) 'I' don't know what that would look like other than the direct experience as it is happening.

Thanks Fred,
Jerry

[Freddi]

Hi Jerry

Thanks for your post, in which I read a lot of clarity.

For example, here:

There seems to be some kind of combination of 'I' thought and body sensation together to imply a me deciding, but it is still clear that there is no entity deciding - just thoughts and body sensations, then deciding from nowhere.

and here:

It is clear that the images in either visual or word form do not decide, but simply anticipate a decision or label a decision already made.

and here:

No decider or talker was found, just decisions and talking. Planning to watch conversation more carefully.

Yes, continue to observe. Once the reflex to question and look with a fresh eye has started, Life becomes an exploration, like a constant meditation.

Everything running on autopilot, just doing what it does.

Once seen that there is no one in charge, the whole question of free will or no free will does not apply. It is not a mental deduction, it comes with the willingness to check our first hand experience instead on relying on hearsay.

Happy to continue looking at decisions and provide a more detailed account of a decision if you like...

Up to you, but I am happy that you have seen that there is/never was any 'I' as chooser.
You may find that, as I said above, this exploration continues on autopilot, as more and more dominos fall away, and every assumption is questioned against your immediate experience. This is why, here at LU, we have post-gate ‘support’ groups, to allow the sharing of this continued investigation, and the questioning of habitual thinking that may still arise (what you called ‘personality scripts thoughts and feelings’).

I would like us to explore any identification with the body.

After you have read these lines, close your eyes. For a moment, step out of the mind stream, and notice the breathing, the hearing, the smelling, the touching, the sensing, what is alive, in this moment.
1) Can you find a boundary between what is ‘you’ and what is ‘not you’? Is that the skin? Can the skin be sensed? What is labeled as ‘the body’?
2) Is there an inside and an outside?
3) Notice all the sensations, including thoughts. Where do they all take place? Are some here and others there or is it all in the same space?
4) Would you say that the ‘body’ is doing the experiencing or that it is experienced?

Take a good look, stay with what is true, here and now, this uninterpreted moment.

Thanks!

Fred

[bfltsns15]

Hi Fred,

1) Can you find a boundary between what is ‘you’ and what is ‘not you’? Is that the skin? Can the skin be sensed? What is labeled as ‘the body’?

With eyes closed:

Cannot find a boundary. No sense of the skin specifically. There are the sensations of the body and the whole field of energetic sensations in the approximate shape of the body and this is mentally labeled as 'the body.'

2) Is there an inside and an outside?

No. It is a continuous field or space of experiences. Inside/Outside is specific to the visual boundary of the body. It is not relevant with eyes closed. There is no inside/outside except as thought.

3) Notice all the sensations, including thoughts. Where do they all take place? Are some here and others there or is it all in the same space?

Both seem to be true. That is, it is all in the same space and there is location relative to 'the body' location. For example the sound of a bird has a different location than a thought or a 'body' sensation or the rain on the roof, etc.

4) Would you say that the ‘body’ is doing the experiencing or that it is experienced?

The 'body' is experienced. The 'body' doing the experiencing is an idea. It is just another experience in the field or space of experiences.

Thanks,
Jerry

T

[Freddi]

Hi Jerry,

The 'body' is experienced. The 'body' doing the experiencing is an idea. It is just another experience in the field or space of experiences.

Thanks! :-)

Inside/Outside is specific to the visual boundary of the body. It is not relevant with eyes closed. There is no inside/outside except as thought.

As you are sooo willing, let's dig a little further …
With eyes open, is there an outside and an inside? Sight is tricky, because, like touch, it can lead to a LOT of interpretation. Take a good look around, what do you say? Where does inside stop and outside begin?

Fred: Are some here and others there or is it all in the same space?
Jerry: Both seem to be true. That is, it is all in the same space and there is location relative to 'the body' location.

Look further. Sounds and sights may contain ‘spatial’ interpretative clues, that seem to infer a distance, like a passing ambulance, for example. Can you know for sure that the ambulance is going away or closer, or is there just an apparent variation in the sound heard?
Bring it back to this moment. Listen to whatever is happening right now. Maybe a dog barking, maybe the wind blowing. Where is the experiencing of the sound taking place? Is it over there? Or is ‘over there’ a speculative interpretation?
When you say ‘relative to the body location’, can you ever experience any other location? How would you know if there is anything other than that location that we label ‘the body’?

Thanks!

Fred