bonnie, this is your thread

[Jack'n'theBox]

It seems an idea/thought arises briefly. Depending on how much negative energy is there it can return again and again. and it's difficult to stop that happening.

Can you stop a thought arising? Let’s have a look.

OK find the thought that is happening now.
Can you stop it half way?
Can you choose NOT to have that thought again?
Can you choose ONLY to have that thought?
Do you have any ‘control’ over thought at all?

The problem is not ‘stopping thoughts’ (what would be able to do that, exactly?) but to see thoughts as simply another arising – as random and insubstantial as an itchy nose or a birdsong.

Thoughts say all kinds of things. But can they be trusted?

For example can you have more than one thought at a time?

Can you find a connection between thoughts that isn’t just another thought claiming a connection?

In direct experience how do you know that the thought happening now has happened previously? Or will happen again? Is there anything other than thought that says this?

[bonnie]

Hiya Jv

was looking at your last post, sent early morning today, tuesday, but now that I come to reply I cant find it, it seems to have disappeared. Would you be able to post again?

Thanks. B

[bonnie]

Ignore my last post, we found it!

Unfortunately my scribe (Akasamati) has run out of time today cos she's running a retreat at the same time as doing this with me, so we'll have to leave it till tomorrow. But I've done lots of reflections and looking, and will keep on with the same enquiries. It's very fruitful!!

Thanks B

[bonnie]

Can you stop a thought arising? Can you stop it half way?

No, I can't stop a thought arising, and I can't stop it half way, but when I'm in the spacious state thoughts are very ephemeral. It's like a background hum that doesn't have any definable words.

Can you choose NOT to have that thought again?
Can you choose ONLY to have that thought?

No and no

Do you have any ‘control’ over thought at all?

Well, if my mind is just going along, thoughts come and go without control. But I can choose to fill my mind with something particular, like a mantra or recitation, and that seems to keep other thoughts at bay. Thoughts pop up as a result of past conditioning and present stimulus, though there is some directionality in a general sense. For example, if I want to reflect on a topic I can turn my mind in the general direction, but the individual thoughts themselves just pop up in an uncontrolled way.

Can thoughts be trusted. Can you have more than one thought at a time?

I don't trust thoughts, they seem to just clatter along, and seldom say anything of importance. They come often associated with feelings and emotions that are fleeting and disappear. In normal everyday mind they crowd in so quickly I can't see a space between so can't tell if they are one after the other or more than one at once. But when i'm stiller they do come one at a time with some space between.

Can you find a connection between thoughts that isn’t just another thought claiming a connection?
In direct experience how do you know that the thought happening now has happened previously? Or will happen again? Is there anything other than thought that says this?

No connection, but it's really easy to think there is one!! But I don't think I've really got this so will spend more time looking.

[Jack'n'theBox]

Well, if my mind is just going along, thoughts come and go without control. But I can choose to fill my mind with something particular, like a mantra or recitation, and that seems to keep other thoughts at bay.

OK so what is this ‘mind’ you speak of? Can you find ‘mind’ in direct experience? Is it a thought, a sensation or a feeling, or something else?

The ‘I’ that chooses – is this separate from ‘mind’?

How does ‘choice’ arise – can you ALWAYS choose to get out of a thought loop? Is it ‘I’ that chooses the mantra or other factors?

Thoughts pop up as a result of past conditioning and present stimulus, though there is some directionality in a general sense.

Is this something you can see in direct experience?

For example, what is your experience NOW of anything past?
What is your experience NOW of anything future?
Can you find the present moment? How long is it? Does it have a duration?

if I want to reflect on a topic I can turn my mind in the general direction,

Again, what is ‘mind’? What is the ‘I’ that can turn it? Is ‘I’ separate from ‘mind’?

Can you choose which topics pop up and suggest themselves as suitable for reflection -- or do they suggest themselves?

Have a look and see.

[bonnie]

Hiya Jv

thanks for getting back so quickly. It's great because I have to go for an overnight medical appointment tomorrow and won't be able to post a reply to these questions until Friday afternoon. These are nice juicy questions to keep me busy until then.
Thanks
B

[bonnie]

Hello again

It's been a full few days, with medical appointments and time away from home, but I've been working away at the questions. But I need more time, they are very rich!! Hope to post again tomorrow arvo

B

[bonnie]

OK so what is this ‘mind’ you speak of? Can you find ‘mind’ in direct experience? Is it a thought, a sensation or a feeling, or something else?

The more I look the more I can't find mind, its a mystery. And neither can I say its a thought, feeling or sensation. I'm aware … of something, or rather something is aware of something, or even there is just awareness. At least in the actual moment of direct experience - there's just great space.

The ‘I’ that chooses – is this separate from ‘mind’?

"I" now see that saying "I choose" is really just a conventional use of the term I. And so is the term 'mind'. They both disappear when I am 'just looking'.

How does ‘choice’ arise – can you ALWAYS choose to get out of a thought loop? Is it ‘I’ that chooses the mantra or other factors? Is this something you can see in direct experience?

Choice just appears out of space, it's just there. And the same with thoughts. Sometimes mantras just pop up and sometimes a thought, which also just pops up, prompts them.

For example, what is your experience NOW of anything past?
What is your experience NOW of anything future? Can you find the present moment? How long is it? Does it have a duration?

When I had a good look I came to the conclusion there is only now, but it's very fleeting, it has no duration, it's momentary and 'moving' all the time. The past and future only exist as thought in the fleeting, "now".

Ok, that's it, I've looked the best I can (with all my mistaken views!!) :))

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hi Bonnie, don't worry about mistaken views.

Can you find 'views' outside of thought?

Are thoughts self-aware? Do thoughts themselves 'know' anything?

I'm aware … of something, or rather something is aware of something, or even there is just awareness. At least in the actual moment of direct experience - there's just great space.

Ok great. So you can find a kind of knowing/aware space. Now, this aware space, is that “me”? You can check this by looking to see – does awareness have any characteristics of a personal self? Does it have an age, an occupation, a gender? Does awareness have a history? Does it have experiences? Is it inside the body or is 'the body' inside awareness?

"I" now see that saying "I choose" is really just a conventional use of the term I. And so is the term 'mind'. They both disappear when I am 'just looking'.

OK. Good. So can you see that ‘choice’ and ‘mind’ are concepts – that means they only occur in thought - can you find any concept in direct experience?

When I had a good look I came to the conclusion there is only now, but it's very fleeting, it has no duration, it's momentary and 'moving' all the time. The past and future only exist as thought in the fleeting, "now".

Excellent. So can you see ‘past’, ‘future’, ‘now’ and even ‘time’ are concepts – again can you find any concept in direct experience?

‘I’ is also a concept – can you find ‘I’ anywhere?

Have a look and see.

[bonnie]

Hi there

Today has been rather full, lots of things coming and going, so I need more time to really look with these enquiries. I'll respond in full tomorrow.

Thanks
B

[bonnie]

Can you find 'views' outside of thought?

No, I can't find them outside of thought.

Are thoughts self-aware? Do thoughts themselves 'know' anything?

No, I don't see thoughts as self-aware. Thoughts just arise, they can carry information, but they don't 'know' anything. I've been thinking about insights and how they sometimes feel different. They are sometimes conveyed by thought, but I've also had the experience of having them come as colour. It was quite shocking and I immediately new what it meant but then it took me a long time to find words to describe it to myself with conventional thought.

So you can find a kind of knowing/aware space. Now, this aware space, is that “me”? Does awareness have any characteristics of a personal self?

When I look I can't see any 'me' nor characteristics of a personal self in that space of awareness.

Does it have an age, an occupation, a gender? Does awareness have a history?

None of the above

Does it have experiences?

I'm unsure about this one, I'll have to look more deeply.

Is it inside the body or is 'the body' inside awareness?

This is a tricky one! Awareness can be of the body, but it's beyond the body, neither in nor outside of the body. No actually I think the body is inside awareness, not the other way around.

So can you see that ‘choice’ and ‘mind’ are concepts – that means they only occur in thought - can you find any concept in direct experience?

Yes, I can see they are the same, thought is made up of concepts and concepts are conveyed by thought. Just different names for something that is basically the same.

So can you see ‘past’, ‘future’, ‘now’ and even ‘time’ are concepts – again can you find any concept in direct experience?

Yes, I agree, past, future, now and time are concept/thoughts and they are not there in direct experience

‘I’ is also a concept – can you find ‘I’ anywhere?

No I can't find "I" in direct experience. It is only something that occurs in conventional understanding and communication. When I really look it's not there!

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK there’s some great looking going on here Bonnie. Let’s look at the issues where you have questions.

You say

I think the body is inside awareness, not the other way around

OK. The conventional view is that awareness is somehow ‘in’ the body (often in the head!). But let’s look more closely – sit quietly and find that aware space – Is it like a container that somehow holds experience? Does it have dimensions at all? Can you find a boundary anywhere? In direct experience is there anything of which you are NOT aware?

I asked, does awareness have experiences?

Look at it this way: can you find a line between a sense arising or a thought and the awareness of it? Is awareness one thing and the arising another?

Does awareness have an ‘agenda’? Does it accept some arisings and resist others?

Is awareness an object, can it be apprehended in the same way as a sense arising or a thought?

[bonnie]

find that aware space – Is it like a container that somehow holds experience? Does it have dimensions at all? Can you find a boundary anywhere?

The aware space is limitless, no dimension, no boundary. Therefore it's not like a container and so can't hold anything.

In direct experience is there anything of which you are NOT aware?

No, I can't find anything that I'm not aware of in direct experience.

Can you find a line between a sense arising or a thought and the awareness of it?

No there is no line because they are not different.

Is awareness one thing and the arising another?

No they are not two different things. Without awareness the arising wouldn't be there and without arising, awareness wouldn't be there, so they are not separate.

Does awareness have an ‘agenda’? Does it accept some arisings and resist others?

No, thoughts may have an agenda, but awareness doesn't. It accepts everything that comes into it

Is awareness an object, can it be apprehended in the same way as a sense arising or a thought?

It's not an object. Awareness is just there and it can't be apprehended in that way.

Phew!

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK great. You seem to be open to this investigation of pure awareness – so let’s look more closely. Find that open space of awareness, relax into it and then allow attention to rest on the different arisings in the moment. Look at --

Body – tactile sensations, ‘space’ of body. Experientially, is the body solid? Noticing the ‘space’ that the body occupies, are there perceptible boundaries between body/not body? Does the body have a particular shape or size?

Sights – Is there a (perceived) ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ in the field of vision? Where are sights arising (in direct experience)? Is there an ‘edge’ to what is seen, or simply a field of colours which is mentally imputed as an ‘edge’?

Sounds – Where are sounds arising? In direct experience, are some sounds closer and some further away? Does that ‘space’ have any perceivable boundaries?

Mental activities – Where are mental activities arising? Is the ‘space’ in which mental activities arise any different from the ‘space’ in which the other senses arise?

Now, importantly:

Perceptually, in direct experience, is there a ‘place from’ which arisings are experienced? Where are the arisings happening? Are they arising to anybody/anything?

Is there a ‘point of view’?

Is awareness a property of something else, an ‘I’ or a ‘me’? Can you find an ‘I’ that is aware?

[bonnie]

Body – tactile sensations, ‘space’ of body. Experientially, is the body solid? Noticing the ‘space’ that the body occupies, are there perceptible boundaries between body/not body? Does the body have a particular shape or size

The body is not solid, it doesn't have a defined boundary. The more deeply I look for the space and size of the body, the less I can find it. The only things I could define was a sense of warmth and movement, though I know these are just words for undefinable sensations.

Sights – Is there a (perceived) ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ in the field of vision? Where are sights arising (in direct experience)? Is there an ‘edge’ to what is seen, or simply a field of colours which is mentally imputed as an ‘edge’?

With open looking the field of vision expands, and there is no inside or outside, just a field of colour, wide open and no objects. So I start off looking at something, say a tree, and then it broadens into the space of awareness and becomes just a field of colour.

Sounds – Where are sounds arising? In direct experience, are some sounds closer and some further away? Does that ‘space’ have any perceivable boundaries?

Sounds have different qualities, so that rather then being further away or closer, they are just softer or louder, sharper etc as they arise in the space of awareness. Conventionally I could say the sound of the bird is coming from outside in the garden, but in experience it's just an arising, which I call sound, and it has various characteristics.

Mental activities – Where are mental activities arising? Is the ‘space’ in which mental activities arise any different from the ‘space’ in which the other senses arise?

Mental activities arise in awareness and I can't find any difference between this and 'where' other senses arise. It's just the space of awareness.

Perceptually, in direct experience, is there a ‘place from’ which arisings are experienced? Where are the arisings happening? Are they arising to anybody/anything?

I can't see a place, just the ongoing spacious awareness itself, in which and from which arisings happen. To the extent one could say awareness is a 'thing', then yes, but that's all.

Is awareness a property of something else, an ‘I’ or a ‘me’? Can you find an ‘I’ that is aware?

In spacious awareness there is no 'me', just recognition/awareness.