This last push...

[Jivanmukta_Nothing]

Hi Edmar,

Thanks for your reply. Let's continue.

Consciousness is there all the time. It is not done or gotten. I experience it because it is what experiences. This is not a higher power, nor something spiritual or religious. It is much more intimate. It is me in a sense, if you would see past the limitations of an "I" or "experiencer. These latter two are helpful nouns, but designate the observer rather than the full exposure of life that constitutes consciousness.

When you say consciousness is what experiences, yet at the same time Consciousness is all there is, what are you implying? So is there a difference between "you" and an experience? In what context are you using the word Consciousness? Is it strictly for communicative purposes or is there a belief in Consciousness?

Ego and experience are both an energetic formation and in duality they would happen in consciousness. Self and soul are both the flip side of this duality coin and represent the unchanging nature of awareness/consciousness. In the end all above words are inseparable from the other.

What is this duality you speak of? Are ego, experience and duality something that can be felt in this moment or are they spurring from belief systems?

I this have a reluctance to put words to all these labels as the experience, clarity and knowing nature are unconfinable to words.

On this experience level compliments and gratitude happen. I have not found the root of these energy formations and frankly I am not keen to search for them.

Since you're uncomfortable with this practical exercise, let's try an alternative - consider this: when listening to someone speak, at that moment, who is listening and who is speaking? What is happening in these exchange of words and what is being experienced and by whom?

Looking forward to your reply!

Regards,

Delson

[Edmar]

Hi Delson,


Perhaps it is time to come out of the closet and lay some kind of ontology in front of you. It seems you don't settle for less ;-).

When you say consciousness is what experiences, yet at the same time Consciousness is all there is, what are you implying? So is there a difference between "you" and an experience? In what context are you using the word Consciousness? Is it strictly for communicative purposes or is there a belief in Consciousness?

I see Consciousness not as belief or label. Both would imply that there is something else that is labeling or believing. On the contrary, I experience Consciousness as Me, and I am what is aware of all experiences.

Without consciousness there is no experience. However I do not identify experiences as me, I do see Consciousness/Me being the container of all experiences and see them happening in Me. They don't happen to Me and they don't happen by Me. They just happen.

What is this duality you speak of? Are ego, experience and duality something that can be felt in this moment or are they spurring from belief systems?

All experiences are happening in duality, as there is both an experiencer and experience. But nevertheless they are vivid and real. I don't see them as fantasy or imaginary. I experience them now and do not dismiss them in any way. Light/Dark/Warm/Cold/Connection/Separation and other sensations and thoughts are simply happening.

Ego (being the thought that there is a separate person) is happening just like any other thought and sensation. This is not part of a belief system, and simply happening.

However they are not part of my nature, just part of all phenomena, and simply happening.

Since you're uncomfortable with this practical exercise, let's try an alternative - consider this: when listening to someone speak, at that moment, who is listening and who is speaking? What is happening in these exchange of words and what is being experienced and by whom?

The phenomenon called Edmar is speaking and the phenomenon Other is listening. Consciousness is experiencing the totality (among which observing both figures) and impartial to whatever happens.

Consciousness is furthermore capable of experiencing thoughts and until recently there was a thought that these thoughts belong to the Edmar figure. Now it is just a thought, say a voice over in the movie projection, there is no way it can be separated from the complete picture.

Thanks for making me listen.

Kind regards,

Edmar (for convenience sake)

[Jivanmukta_Nothing]

Hi Edmar,

Thank you for your patience and continuing down the rabbit hole :)

I understand what you mean. To clarify then, are such words as consciousness and awareness, etc, just an attempt to describe the overall experience? What is the experience itself?

Regards,

Delson

[Edmar]

Hi Delson,

Down and down we go.

Consciousness/Awareness is the mirror that watches the phenomena and makes it into an experience. As such it is inseparable from the experience itself. However this reflective quality gives a depth and dimension to phenomena (being impulses + the sensation of it) that wouldn't be able without Awareness. It is the ingredient that elevates phenomena to a human experience with all emotions, feelings and observations.

I cannot tell from experience what an experience without Awareness would look like, but watching lower life forms I can imagine life would be mere impulses and sensations.

So experience = impuls+sensation+awareness.

I kinda like this equation. It is crude and not tested, but please shoot.

Kind regards,

Edmar

[Jivanmukta_Nothing]

Hi Edmar,

Thanks for the answers.

Consciousness/Awareness is the mirror that watches the phenomena and makes it into an experience. As such it is inseparable from the experience itself. However this reflective quality gives a depth and dimension to phenomena (being impulses + the sensation of it) that wouldn't be able without Awareness. It is the ingredient that elevates phenomena to a human experience with all emotions, feelings and observations.

So far, these seem like intellectual realizations/ findings. Let's stick to the present moment, and focus on the experience without trying to define it with past-knowledge/information words. In the simplest terms, what is experienced now?

I cannot tell from experience what an experience without Awareness would look like, but watching lower life forms I can imagine life would be mere impulses and sensations.

So experience = impuls+sensation+awareness.

I kinda like this equation. It is crude and not tested, but please shoot.

Again, intellectualizations, which are a hindrance at the moment to your present experience. Are you implying then that "Awareness" is all that exists? Let's take a step back and go back to some more practical approaches. How are decisions made in day to day life, no matter how mundane? Let's focus on this moment and see what's being experienced.

Looking forward to your findings based on the present experience. Thanks!

Regards,

Delson

[Edmar]

Hi Delson,

So far, these seem like intellectual realizations/ findings. Let's stick to the present moment, and focus on the experience without trying to define it with past-knowledge/information words. In the simplest terms, what is experienced now?

Without past knowledge? Impossible to describe. Even words like sound/light/form/thought require past knowledge. So let's give it a try. There is awareness, impulses within this awareness what can only be described as bodily sensations (sound experienced as outside this body/light emanating from a source in front of this body/movements by this body/forms and shapes) and thoughts experienced (struggle using a form of language is not based on past experience).

Again, intellectualizations, which are a hindrance at the moment to your present experience. Are you implying then that "Awareness" is all that exists? Let's take a step back and go back to some more practical approaches. How are decisions made in day to day life, no matter how mundane? Let's focus on this moment and see what's being experienced.

So this finger is typing letters. Every letter is being typed without any noticeable decision. Even a correction is without a prior decision. There is this pause and thought if there is more to say and then the typing continues at the same time. Again no decision to be distinguished.

All is taking place and observed by Awareness, which does not involve itself in the process. It notices the thought if there is more to say.

Nothing more to say, is the next thought. Again no decision to be allocated prior to this thought.

Then the thought if this exercise brings new findings. No, no decisions, all phenomena are observed by an uninvolved awareness. No news.

That's all I can say about it. Phenomena experienced in empty space and the awareness thereof...

Kind regards,

Edmar

[Jivanmukta_Nothing]

Hi Edmar,

Thanks for your response. Here are my questions for you regarding your observations.

Without past knowledge? Impossible to describe. Even words like sound/light/form/thought require past knowledge. So let's give it a try. There is awareness, impulses within this awareness what can only be described as bodily sensations (sound experienced as outside this body/light emanating from a source in front of this body/movements by this body/forms and shapes) and thoughts experienced (struggle using a form of language is not based on past experience).

If all is just happening, then where is Edmar in the picture?

So this finger is typing letters. Every letter is being typed without any noticeable decision. Even a correction is without a prior decision. There is this pause and thought if there is more to say and then the typing continues at the same time. Again no decision to be distinguished.

All is taking place and observed by Awareness, which does not involve itself in the process. It notices the thought if there is more to say.

In this observation, what does it suggest about individual decisions, if any exist at all?


Regards,

Delson

[Edmar]

Hi Delson,

If all is just happening, then where is Edmar in the picture?

Edmar is a label, produced by the mind, but is purely fictional.

In this observation, what does it suggest about individual decisions, if any exist at all?

There is no individual to take decisions, but (to get philosophical) this is paradoxical to the fact that you give pointers and I investigate them. To see the illusion has taken a number steps and insights. How this process works is a mystery, but experience keeps confirming me that it is caused by awareness preceded by investigative or quieting thoughts.

In conclusion: I am awareness and do not take decisions. The individual Edmar that appears to take decisions is just a thought and so is the illusion of an individual decision.

Kind regards,

Edmar

[Jivanmukta_Nothing]

Hi Edmar,

Your answers indicate a new kind of clarity. For this reason, I'd like to put across to you the final set of questions which is asked to all on their final step towards crossing the gate.

Please answer as fully as you can from present experience, rather than from theory or concepts. Please try to answer in lay terms rather than 'spiritual' terminology:-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Please describe how deciding, intending, choosing and controlling events in Life happens. In reality do 'you' make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your experience, maybe from everyday life (even if there is no real 'you'!).

6) Anything to add?

Looking forward to your answers. Take as much time as you need.

Regards,

Delson

[Edmar]

Dear Delson,

Thanks again, looking forward to what I will write below:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is not and there has never been. Experience is completely void of an separate I. The best I can describe it is that I am the complete picture.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion starts with a thought, usually there is a sensation or feeling and the mind picks up on that and creates a me-thought, this is then often enforced by a he/she-thought and then built into a story. Right now there is a screen in front of this body and I sense a relief that I am not identifying with 'me' so much. However this me-thought is then seen and dissipates. This me-thought happens constantly, but it is slowing down, the belief of the me-thought hardly happens.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The last few days a lot of old feelings have been stirred up, there is sadness and annoyance, a bit of suppressed anger, which is not so different from before, other than that the stories stay away. This creates a lot of space.

Furthermore I got impatient with your questions as you might have noticed. I thought you were repeating yourself and asking for the obvious. Only after your latest post I realized that this was a test to see if there is any doubt. I can honestly say that there is not. I also feel confident to use the word "I", regardless whether I talk about awareness or the small self. Life doesn't change by seeing the no-self and there is no reason to be afraid of getting trapped into believing a separate self.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

This push was not so dramatic, it hilarious to find no one, when I kept looking for the Thinker, then shifted the focus to the Looker, then noticed the Focus Shifter and saw the Noticer. After that I gave up. From there on the energy ran out of this game. I am writing this with bemusement... Indeed no doubt is experienced. That's what pushed me over.

5) Please describe how deciding, intending, choosing and controlling events in Life happens. In reality do 'you' make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your experience, maybe from everyday life (even if there is no real 'you'!).

Yesterday I went for a run, there was this feeling of guilt that I hadn't gone the day before and desire to get more in shape. Both feelings were there and the decision to go was made after 15 minutes of doubt. The moment of the decision nor the exact energy that caused the decision can be pin-pointed. However this run made me feel good about myself and that created an incentive to do it more often, so there is cause and effect that can change future events, thoughts and feelings. Same goes for receiving teachings and pointers. They do have effect on a life level but any effectuator cannot be allocated.

It feels to me that all energy is passed on and on and the way in which this happens can be manipulated with awareness, decision-thoughts and intention-thoughts. Thoughts might be empty but they certainly have effect. Hence my interest in growing awareness and serving.

6) Anything to add?

There is still a me-thought, just like unicorn-thoughts and Santa Claus-thoughts. It is there and there is no one that wants to get rid of these thoughts. That insight was very helpful in releasing the belief in the me-thoughts and to stop looking for any spectacular enlightenment experiences.

From here on life will run its course with greater space and awareness and a continuous stream of new insights.

Currently I feel more sad, annoyed and bored than before, but those are only feelings. On a deeper level there is simple happiness and peace.

I have enjoyed what I have written above...

Kind regards,

Edmar

[Jivanmukta_Nothing]

Hi Edmar,

Thank you for your answers. I have one more question to ask -

What are you responsible for?

Once the questions are answered, I will have other guides here review this thread and ask any other supplemental questions based on your answers.

Will return shortly.

Regards,

Delson

[Edmar]

Dear Delson,


It looks like we are full circle. I started off introducing myself as someone who would dismiss non-duality as a waiver of personal responsibility.

The answer of the teacher was that responsibility out of duty is transformed to duty out of love.

This resonated two years ago and still does. I sent a video about a man that gave up his career to go skating slowly. His nick was Slomo.

My response was that I am happy to simplify life, but without dedication and serving this whole non-dual experience becomes nihilistic. That would create a dull end to the human experience.

In conclusion there is no one that can be held responsible, but if by any chance intentions and motives can be manipulated, I opt for the intention to serve others in this life. How? At this moment opportunities to serve are manifesting and seized.

Next to that it goes without saying that there is no incentive whatsoever to inflict harm on others, considering that there are no others that cause me suffering.

Final word is that I am heavily skeptic about the notion of right and wrong. It all depends on how much you identify and with whom. That kind of ethics will not form a cause for responsibility.

A bit elaborate in hindsight, but above was my 5 cents.

Kind regards,

Edmar

[Jivanmukta_Nothing]

Hi Edmar,

Here are some questions posted by other guides after reviewing your posts.

'Are you awareness? Can you manipulate what happens?'

'Thoughts might be empty but they certainly have effect'. How so? Can these ‘cause and effect’ links be verified, in direct experience, or are they just another assumption?

So this awareness is changeable. What about experiencing without awareness, just experiencing?

How would you describe this to someone who never heard of it?” (And “this”/"it" is left vague on purpose, because I am also curious about his interpretation)

Regards,

Delson

[Edmar]

Dear Delson and the other guides,

Here we go:

Are you awareness? Can you manipulate what happens?'

I am not Awareness and I cannot manipulate what happens.

To elaborate: Awareness is witnessing all phenomena and is the unchanging knowing of all experiences. Although this Knowing is the most intimate experience possible, identifying it as an "I" is just another experience.

Experiences can result in a new experience, however this would however be on an experience level only. Awareness/Knowing will not be affected. Furthermore the unfolding of 'what appears to be cause and effect' is without manipulation. There is no one that can manipulate.

'Thoughts might be empty but they certainly have effect'. How so? Can these ‘cause and effect’ links be verified, in direct experience, or are they just another assumption?

I notice that my remark on cause and effect has triggered some questions. So I have taken a deeper look at it to see in what way it demonstrates unclarity. Probably you are distinguishing between direct experiences (5 senses) and indirect experiences (interpretations, feelings, emotions and thoughts), whereby indirect experiences are purely speculative. Thank you for making me aware of this distinction. So I confirm that cause and effect is just on an experience level and purely speculative when it comes to indirect experience. Can a thought cause effect on direct experience? I would say yes. A suicidal thought can create suicide which will change direct experience, to name a dramatic example.

So this awareness is changeable. What about experiencing without awareness, just experiencing?

No Awareness is unchanging as it encompasses everything. I am not sure which words of mine implied this, but let me be adamant about it. Yes, the sensation of awareness can change, when thoughts slow down, and a feeling of space arises, but this is just on an experience level, Awareness is unaffected.

How would you describe this to someone who never heard of it?

There are some beautiful analogies out there but I would describe it in the most personal way possible. Not much changed with me when it happened. People stayed the same, the world looked the same. Ego patterns, thoughts and believes were comparable to before. However all of a sudden there was this sense that I was looking at it all, not only the people and the world, but also these thoughts that are arising and dissolving, these feelings that popped up and faded away, these emotions, these thoughts that chased other thoughts into stories and identifications, the whole nine yards.

Looking at it then started to change some experiences, the whole nine yards became eight, seven, six yards in the case of story building and identifications, and the number of thoughts slowed down. They are still abundant in quantity but shorter and with more gaps.

Then the bodily sensations started to change ever so slightly. What used to be feelings became just energies and some previously unknown energies started to arise. Also the ego patterns changed, as well as likes and dislikes. Nothing dramatic but quite noticeable for friends and family.

As mentioned there are many beautiful analogies out there on a truth level but if I may add one on an experience level: It feels like a surge of growing up. Childlike convictions are shattered and adult love, wisdom and responsibility is gained. And this is still going on.

Again thanks to all for your patience.

Yours truly,

Edmar

[Jivanmukta_Nothing]

Hi Edmar,

The other guides have seen your answers.

Take a good look now at this moment and see if you can find anything there other than a word such as awareness/consciousness/identity/etc and can you find anything more than just what's happening?

What is gaining on love, wisdom and spirituality?

Will ask more questions as they come to me. Thanks.

Regards,

Delson