I want to be an even better hostess

[Petrus]

The I that doesn’t know is the one who experiences, I don’t feel it’s a thought.

So if it is not a thought, what is it?
Can you locate it?

Another question:
The title for this conversation you made it:

I want to be an even better hostess

Do you have any clue how you would constitute a "better hostess"?

It is already late in my timezone. Tomorrow more questions...

[Auren]

So if it is not a thought, what is it?
Can you locate it?

In the body maybe, but it’s difficult because at the same time I don’t feel it has a boundary. I don’t seem to be able to define it.

Do you have any clue how you would constitute a "better hostess"?

Funny you ask, because right after I posted the thread it occurred to me, that maybe I wasn’t a hostess, since that implies something from the outside coming to you and allowing it (that’s what was meant with ‘a better’ hostess, for that is how I felt it then, ‘something coming’). Maybe it was already there and what I had to do was allowing it to ‘flourish’ by giving it time and a little bit of effort, and this by being conscious instead of what was not it. A little bit like peeling a fruit. So I guess that’s my answer to your question, letting go of what is not the ‘I that doesn’t know’ by being conscious of it.

I’m in the CET timezone so yes, it’s a bit upsidedown :) but it’s fine, I think sometimes it’s good to have a little time in between to let things sink in :)

[Petrus]

Maybe it was already there and what I had to do was allowing it to ‘flourish’ by giving it time and a little bit of effort, and this by being conscious instead of what was not it. A little bit like peeling a fruit. So I guess that’s my answer to your question, letting go of what is not the ‘I that doesn’t know’ by being conscious of it.

What is "it" here?
In general it is not clear to me what you describe here. Can you be more precise?

Let us have a closer look at that "I".
The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. 'I' am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.

Are you a body with a mind?
Do you have control over the body?
Can you see, feel, smell, hear?

[Auren]

What is "it" here?
In general it is not clear to me what you describe here. Can you be more precise?

It= what is not the ’I that doesn’t know”
I changed perspective, from feeling something is coming (from the outside, thus the hostess thing), to feeling something is coming out (from the inside). I can’t define it, but is not thoughts. For it to reveal itself (flourish) I try to be conscious of what it is not (the thoughts).

Are you a body with a mind?
Do you have control over the body?
Can you see, feel, smell, hear?

So if it is not a thought, what is it?

The “I that doesn’t know”, which is not a thought you mean?
As you say, that is the standard view, and I guess that is the one I have too. I feel like I’m split and I am always at a loss at answering questions about the “I”, for on the one hand I do have the standard view, but then there is this other thing, when thoughts are not there, then I’m not the body, but my body hears.
When I felt ‘most me’ was in that experience though, and there no, I was not a body with mind, thus no control, and no senses.
I’m sorry if my answers are not clear enough, I’m doing my best, but I feel the “I” is split!

[Petrus]

When you sat down and looked you couldnt find an "I", you only found thoughts.
Remember that. You always can sit down and have a look.
Where is "I"? Cant find it, only thoughts passing by.

I changed perspective, from feeling something is coming (from the outside, thus the hostess thing), to feeling something is coming out (from the inside). I can’t define it, but is not thoughts.

So this are feelings passing by. First the feeling something is coming. And after that a feeling something is coming out. Its no thoughts, but feelings. And it is an expectation.
Feelings come and the feelings go too. But not because of that something is going to happen. When you are waiting for something to happen you cannot clearly see what really is happening now. Better have a look: what is it what there is now?

People who are awaken seem to have come to the realization of ‘merging’

This is a expectation as a thought.
Sit down and look: Thoughts come and go, but you cant find an 'I". What could be merging if there is no-thing (no "I") to merge? Only thoughts and feelings coming and going. No me, no center.

As you say, that is the standard view, and I guess that is the one I have too.

You guess? Better not guess or think, but look closely and just write down what you see yourself.
Only with you telling me what you see I can guide you with questions.
Thoughts and guesses are fine, but they dont give directions.

I feel like I’m split and I am always at a loss at answering questions about the “I”

When feeling split there are 2 thoughts about the "I", and you want choose 1.
But if in fact there is no "I", thougths about "I" are what they are: only thoughts.
You dont have to choose one. Just have look and see what is.
What is this "I" that is at a loss?

for on the one hand I do have the standard view

Which view is that exactly?
Please tell me in detail.

my body hears

Is that really so? Close your eyes and listen to the sounds.
Is your body doing that?
Is there an "I" doing that?
Observe closely, what do you notice?

I’m doing my best

I know. You are doing fine!

but I feel the “I” is split!

First you wrote "you" were split, and now the "I" is split.
So now you have 2 I's, haha? Where are they exactly?
When you sat down and looked you couldnt even find one, you only found thoughts passing by.
So maybe every "I" is just a thought passing by?
Could it be that "I" is only a thought?
Please have a look at this split feeling. What do you see?

Off the subject: What is your native language?
If it is not english, maybe sometimes it is more convenient to express in your own language?

[Auren]

So this are feelings passing by. First the feeling something is coming. And after that a feeling something is coming out. Its no thoughts, but feelings. And it is an expectation.
Feelings come and the feelings go too. But not because of that something is going to happen. When you are waiting for something to happen you cannot clearly see what really is happening now. Better have a look: what is it what there is now?

This is a expectation as a thought.
Sit down and look: Thoughts come and go, but you cant find an 'I". What could be merging if there is no-thing (no "I") to merge? Only thoughts and feelings coming and going. No me, no center.

Acknowledged :)

You guess? Better not guess or think, but look closely and just write down what you see yourself.
Only with you telling me what you see I can guide you with questions.
Thoughts and guesses are fine, but they dont give directions.

I look, and I can’t find a body, I only perceive thoughts and feelings, also sensations. Ideas and concepts.

When feeling split there are 2 thoughts about the "I", and you want choose 1.
But if in fact there is no "I", thougths about "I" are what they are: only thoughts.
You dont have to choose one. Just have look and see what is.

Acknowledged

What is this "I" that is at a loss?

A thought about an “I”

Which view is that exactly?
Please tell me in detail.

Is that really so? Close your eyes and listen to the sounds.
Is your body doing that?
Is there an "I" doing that?
Observe closely, what do you notice?

Identification with body and mind is what I meant, but now I can’t tell you. I find the body as some kind of receptor or decoder, not the doer. The “I” is not the doer either, more like the perceiver.

First you wrote "you" were split, and now the "I" is split.
So now you have 2 I's, haha? Where are they exactly?
When you sat down and looked you couldnt even find one, you only found thoughts passing by.
So maybe every "I" is just a thought passing by?
Could it be that "I" is only a thought?
Please have a look at this split feeling. What do you see?

Yes, the ”I” is a thought too.
I don’t feel split anymore, the ideas about the “I’s” are vanishing when I recognize them as ideas and the limits are blurred now.

Off the subject: What is your native language?
If it is not english, maybe sometimes it is more convenient to express in your own language?

Yes, I am aware of the language option, and even thought English is not my native language I feel very comfortable with it since it allows a lot freedom of expression due to its flexibility. My native language is Spanish but since I live in another country and I don’t use it much I feel it’s getting a bit rusty and often find myself resorting to English :) So for me it’s fine, but I appreciate your concern. If you think it’ll be better for me to change to my native language I’m of course open to that.

[Petrus]

Hi Auren,

Your answers are going shorter and shorter.
I wonder why. Can you tell me?

I find the body as some kind of receptor or decoder, not the doer. The “I” is not the doer either, more like the perceiver.

Can you distinguish clearly a perceiver and what is perceived ?

===
Ok I would like to ask you some questions about the body. Please answer them one-by-one.

Close your eyes. Answer the questions without thinking, so only tell me what you experience.
(ofcourse you can open your eyes to type the answers, haha)

Does the body have a shape ?

Can you distinguish inside and outside the body?

Can you describe what you perceive?

Do you perceive a body?

The sound you hear, where do you hear it?

===
Also I would like you to do 2 exercises:
1. Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which one.
If you have picked one read on.
...
Can you find what was choosing, what was deciding on that particular arm?
You can repeat this a couple of times. Can you find what is doing the choosing?

2. Ok, now choose an arm again and raise it.
Look closely at the process of raising, especially how it starts raising from lying still.
Are you raising it? Or is it just raising all of a sudden?

[Auren]

Your answers are going shorter and shorter.
I wonder why. Can you tell me?

It’s getting simpler and I have less to say! :)

Can you distinguish clearly a perceiver and what is perceived ?

No

Does the body have a shape ?

No, only the image of the body appears in my mind

Can you distinguish inside and outside the body?

By sensations, for ex. in my fingers, if they ‘tickle’ I can 'guess' the shape by where it's tickling, but not in the rest

Can you describe what you perceive?

Sensations, a light breeze, a sound, the feel of the table under my hand

Do you perceive a body?

No, only if the the image of the body appears I ‘see’ it. If my stomach hurts I perceive it.

The sound you hear, where do you hear it?

All over, I don’t know… I can’t identify any place

Can you find what was choosing, what was deciding on that particular arm?
You can repeat this a couple of times. Can you find what is doing the choosing?

No

Look closely at the process of raising, especially how it starts raising from lying still.
Are you raising it? Or is it just raising all of a sudden?

It raised itself!

[Auren]

Hey, just wanted to tell you that I'll be travelling tomorrow and don't know when I'll have wifi available, I'm counting on a day or two, I'll be back as soon as possible :) Thank you Peter :)

[Petrus]

Hi Auren,

Hey, just wanted to tell you that I'll be travelling tomorrow

Dont worry. I just am here and I and will wait until you answer. Dont have to hurry.

Can you distinguish clearly a perceiver and what is perceived ?

No

That was a trick question. In direct experience there just is perceiving indeed, no perceiver or something perceived.

The sound you hear, where do you hear it?

All over, I don’t know… I can’t identify any place

Yes, there just is hearing. No place.

Your answers seem clear to me: "I" is a thought, there is no real body, no chooser, no doer.
If so, is there someone or something responsible?

And I am wondering: Is there still someone waiting?

And with that my questions to you are at an end for now.
Is there still something you want to look into together?

If all is fine for you too I would like to ask 6 final questions.
These questions (with your answers) can give a couple of others guides an insight into your seeing through the illusion. Maybe they have some additional questions.
Is that ok with you?

[Auren]

Hi Peter,
I'll copy/paste your mail and look into the questions later (I'm at a café ;)

Yes of course, I'll be happy to answer any other quesions :)

[Auren]

And with that my questions to you are at an end for now.
Is there still something you want to look into together?

Thank you for your effort and help. I don’t have any questions no :)

If so, is there someone or something responsible?

Responsible for the thoughts, the choosing, the doing? If there is, I can’t find it

And I am wondering: Is there still someone waiting?

The idea is still there, I see it sometimes, but recognize it as a thought too. Noone is actually waiting.

[Petrus]

Ok Auren, it was a pleasure to me (and it still is).
I am still amazed about the switch you made during our conversation!
And I am curious to your answers to these 6 questions.

Here they are:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Do you have anything to add?

[Auren]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I can’t find any. What I had is practically gone by now.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I identified with my body, with my thoughts and my experience. That gave me an identity. As opposed to other identities. I don’t know when it starts/started, it was always there. Now it comes as thoughts, which are very quickly recognized as such and left alone.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I think the only difference is less identification. I don’t feel anything special, if I had to describe it in a word I’d say detached maybe. I live in the moment and I feel I am present most of the time. I don’t believe my thoughts (even the very attractive ones, neither the ‘negative’ ones). I feel at peace and I don’t worry. But I felt a little like that already when I started the dialogue. You say you are amazed about the switch but I don’t really see it as such (a switch), not something sudden in any case, and I don’t feel very different. More aligned with the moment, whatever it is, and whatever it brings, yes.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I don’t know what you mean, I am not aware of any bit or being pushed over. You gave me some pointers and I looked into them and verified it myself, that’s all.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I can’t describe any of those things, I don’t know what they are… I don’t know what makes things happen or how they work. I don’t know what I am responsible for either, other than being loyal to myself, and by that I mean not letting myself act out of and get carried away by fear, thoughts, conditionings…

6) Do you have anything to add?

I have the feeling you are asking for something I cannot deliver :)

[Petrus]

Hi Auren,

Thank you for your honest answers.
From your answers I can see that there still maybe some issues that are not totally clear.

I can’t find any ("I").

You cannot find one, but is there one somewhere?
In your own experience, is there one?

What I had is practically gone by now.

Are you sure you had something? Where did you keep that?
What in your experience is this "I" that had something?
Has there ever been an "I" (other then the thought "I" that come and goes and is not real) ?

As you said, you experienced there are thoughts and now and then there is an "I"-thought only.
In that case where could there be located a separate "me"?

I identified with my body, with my thoughts and my experience

Can you tell me how you did that, identifying?
If you had to learn somebody how to identfy with the body, how would you explain that?
How can you stop the identifying?

I don’t believe my thoughts

What exactly is that: not believing your thoughts?
How do you do that "not believing your thoughts"?
Is there really a "you" that is doing this not believing?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?

I can’t describe any of those things, I don’t know what they are…

These are properties of the human condition. How come you cant describe these?

Every day, every moment start from scratch. Only look in your own experience.
Dont let thought lead you. Only look and see.
Is there an "I" now? Could there ever have been one?