A bit worried about this process.

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

Firstly, no you're not giving me too much to do at the moment. It's just that some of the questions are not easy to answer and take time to investigate so sometimes I am unable to get back to you about all points the next day. But I will try to at least tackle these outstanding questions in due course. Keep reminding me if you think I've not responded to something which is fundamental - you probably have already. I keep forgetting you are ahead of the game here :-)

Ok. I have had a bit of time tonight thinking (sorry looking) at thoughts being or not being connected. My experience is that it feels like they are connected, but if I analyse what's going on another possibility arises. It seems that memory plays a role in this in that when I think of a subject or object, memories of past experiences to do with that topic are accessed. Then thoughts arise that surround those memories which makes it seem that thoughts arising are connected but they're not, its just a story of a past experience playing out. For example if I think of a house, I might think of my Grandmothers house and the story would be a journey through the house room by room. This is a replay of memories I have of it. It is not more thoughts invoking more thoughts. I'm not thinking about her house, I'm remembering it (or memories are arising of it). A bit like in a computer when data accesses more data on a subject because that's how it's wired. It doesn't know what the user wants of it, it just presents all the information related to an area of interest. Does that make sense ??

The other thing that plays a role seems to be dialogue. When thinking about stuff it usually takes the form of dialogue i.e a conversation remembered or imagined. Remembering a conversation is just memory again. Imagined conversation is possible because language has rules and as long as these rules are followed (which are automatic because they are already learned) then imaginary conversation is possible. Dialogue is powerful because it has "weight". It can cause an emotional response. That's how an emotion can arise from an imagined situation.

It suddenly feels right to say that attachment to thought is just thoughts about thoughts. Sometimes thoughts about thoughts can be like a swarm around a queen. It can get out of control especially when emotions start to arise because of words/language.

All this relies on the assumption that thought and memory are not the same thing. And that conversations in your head are not thoughts but just language following its rules and meandering around until some meaning is derived.

Have you ever experienced total random thoughts?

Yes. It feels like I have at times. But usually when I investigate "where did that come from", it turns out to be some external stimulus that fired a memory of something. I've noticed that I hardly ever seem to think about something which I've never thought about before. It's usually a replay of something or a simulation of some future event which when looked at closely turns out to be lots of memories mashed together to look a bit like a unique event.

Do you think the real I is actually affected by anything that appears or is experienced? Kind of like a mirror – is it affected by any of the reflections? Or the ocean by a single wave?

What is the real I though ? I've fallen into the trap of assuming that the I that I think I am is just an illusion and I've imagined that somewhere in the wings there's another I - the real I - waiting to take over. This is just another layer of the onion isn't it ?? If the layers keep being removed all that's left is nothing - just bits of onion. So no, nothing can affect nothing can it ??

There you go - I'm not even a root vegetable !! (joke)

All the best

Rich

I'll keep looking ....

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

It's just that some of the questions are not easy to answer and take time to investigate so sometimes I am unable to get back to you about all points the next day.

I understand and appreciate this – and thank you. So please feel free to check or query if I throw you a curve ball! OK! :)

Ok. I have had a bit of time tonight thinking (sorry looking) at thoughts being or not being connected. My experience is that it feels like they are connected, but if I analyse what's going on another possibility arises. It seems that memory plays a role in this in that when I think of a subject or object, memories of past experiences to do with that topic are accessed.

Fabulous looking and noticing! And how often does this happen? What I mean is how much memory and comparison comes in to play when thought is explaining OR even predicting?

It can cause an emotional response. That's how an emotion can arise from an imagined situation.

OK – lets test this. Can a thought bring an automatic emotional response? I think you tried this with happiness Did it work? I believe you tested it and it didn’t – you couldn’t make yourself happy NOW (page1). So re test that and make sure that thought cant bring about an emotion.

Next look and see exactly what happens when an emotion follows a thought. Where do emotions come from? Where do they go? Do you bring them or sent them away? Is that possible? Can they be controlled in any way, if so how?

When they arrive are they constant? Or permanent in any way?

Do they have story attached – e.g. a load of thoughts explaining this emotion. And with the story – does that emotion ‘fell’ heavier? If the story is spotted – what then happens to the emotion – anything?

It suddenly feels right to say that attachment to thought is just thoughts about thoughts. Sometimes thoughts about thoughts can be like a swarm around a queen. It can get out of control especially when emotions start to arise because of words/language.

Is that another thought – that thought is getting out of control? LOL! Can you see that thought? Is it a story?

All this relies on the assumption that thought and memory are not the same thing. And that conversations in your head are not thoughts but just language following its rules and meandering around until some meaning is derived.

So test this too! What is the difference between a thought and a memory? What explains the difference between thought and memory? Thought?

What is the real I though ? I've fallen into the trap of assuming that the I that I think I am is just an illusion and I've imagined that somewhere in the wings there's another I - the real I - waiting to take over. This is just another layer of the onion isn't it ?? If the layers keep being removed all that's left is nothing - just bits of onion. So no, nothing can affect nothing can it ??

WOW! Read this last sentence! Can you sit with that - or just let it hang and absorb?
Now what we do is peel that onion one layer at a time! OK! Do you play an instrument Rich – or make Art, or write? Just a question – not a prerequisite!

There you go - I'm not even a root vegetable !!

LOL!!!!!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

sorry I've been a little longer in getting back to you. Some stuff took a bit more investigation and I still don't think I've reached what will turn out to be the truth, but eliminating the irrelevant keeps narrowing it down I suppose. So it's all relevant in a way !!

And how often does this happen? What I mean is how much memory and comparison comes in to play when thought is explaining OR even predicting?

Right. This is an interesting one and I will couple this with another question of yours that is ...

What is the difference between a thought and a memory? What explains the difference between thought and memory? Thought?

To address the first point .. My experience is that memory takes a big role in the way that thought explains or predicts stuff. I don't think that thought could do half of what it does without memory. Memory is referenced all the time in order to kind of verify that what is being thought is "true". Even when predicting the future, bizarrely, memory is probably the main building block for thoughts prediction. Thought just presents its results as if they are unique, but when I look closely they are all based on past experience. That experience may be direct personal experience or something that was read, or viewed on TV or something.

I can't recall ever having a thought that was truly unique. Maybe Gill Gates can!! But even so called unique insights of great men are just a small baby step past what was already known. I think Issac Newton said the phrase "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants". Meaning that he just put the last brick on the pile. Memory, learning and knowledge are really all words that mean the same.

Ok now the second question, "What is the difference between a thought and a memory?". My gut instinct is that they are different, as I think I said in the last post. But I'm open to the possibility that, (having looked and not seen any obvious difference), that they are two sides of the same coin. In other words they could be the same thing presented in a different way !!

So a thought could arise saying "hey look, I've just thought of this ", but when I look closely It's just a memory dressed up in a different way!! Does that mean thoughts are memory, or memory are just thoughts or both ??

What explains the difference between thought and memory ?? Well nothing does really !! Is it that thought is trying to keep the two separate. Could that be part of the illusion. But thought can't be trying to do anything can it ? Because that would mean that thought can think ! If thought can think then it's thought that's in control - but that can't be right because when thought briefly stops, there is no out of control behavior.

Can a thought bring an automatic emotional response? I think you tried this with happiness Did it work? I believe you tested it and it didn’t – you couldn’t make yourself happy NOW (page1). So re test that and make sure that thought cant bring about an emotion.

Yes you're right. When I tried to think "happy" it didn't work. But that doesn't feel like the same thing as remembering a situation or conversation. Why is it then that if I think of an emotionally charged event in the past, that the emotion comes back . It can only be that emotion is thought too, and even emotion about future events is partly connected to memory about past events - experienced or learned. So is emotion just more thought ??

Now what we do is peel that onion one layer at a time! OK! Do you play an instrument Rich – or make Art, or write? Just a question – not a prerequisite!

Ok this is a curved ball LOL !! I've tried to second guess where you're going with this but I can't so I'll just answer it and see what comes.

I have a history of guitar playing but I don't play much anymore - time commitments and life has moved on a bit. I don't think I'm going to be on "Later With Joules Holland anytime soon" but that once was an ambition !! :-)
My only other "Arty" thing is Photography. I love to do landscapes when I get a weekend pass to go to a nice location and hopefully record some nice images.

I've just read this back and I feel that maybe I'm still "intellectualizing" rather than looking. Sorry if that appears to be the case. I'm aware of it and I will try to "look" more. It's hard to break old habits. Also it' s definitely easier to think rather than look because looking needs some quiet silent time and thinking can be done anytime. I know I need to change this - but I don't know how yet.

Take care,

Rich.

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

Does that mean thoughts are memory, or memory are just thoughts or both??

OK – Now look for this. Watch memory and see if they are just thoughts.
Also Are you experiencing the content of past – or just a thought about it?

What explains the difference between thought and memory ?? Well nothing does really !! Is it that thought is trying to keep the two separate. Could that be part of the illusion. But thought can't be trying to do anything can it ? Because that would mean that thought can think ! If thought can think then it's thought that's in control - but that can't be right because when thought briefly stops, there is no out of control behavior.

Lovely noticing here. Check for this and see if it can be verified

So is emotion just more thought??

Good question. Check for this and see if it can be verified.

I have a history of guitar playing but I don't play much anymore - time commitments and life has moved on a bit. I don't think I'm going to be on "Later With Joules Holland anytime soon" but that once was an ambition !! :-) My only other "Arty" thing is Photography. I love to do landscapes when I get a weekend pass to go to a nice location and hopefully record some nice images.

OK next time you play the guitar or take photographs notice whether ‘I’ is involved before, during or after.

Also it' s definitely easier to think rather than look because looking needs some quiet silent time and thinking can be done anytime.

Looking is taking note of sensations, feeling, emotion, and thoughts present now. That doesn’t mean thought content – just notice that thinking is happening. If forgetting happens – no worries – just pick up where remembering happens.
And thoughts will do absolutely anything in order to not look. You are already experiencing this! Look for thought distractions – see if you can spot them! Then smile :)
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

hello Sarah,

I've been trying to look more and not think so much. I don't feel like I'm good at looking !! I sometimes feel like a can almost move across into a different perception especially when I'm outside looking at the trees etc. But then It seems just out of reach and the feeling is gone almost as soon as it arrived.

I've been trying to look at some of the points you gave me to investigate.

Watch memory and see if they are just thoughts.
Also Are you experiencing the content of past – or just a thought about it?

Right, It feels like memory is just thought wrapped up in a different package. Just another side of the same coin if that makes sense. I can't separate thought from memory, even when thought appears to be predictive it still has an element of memory with it. I do not directly experience the content of the past - it doesn't make sense to even say that. The past is gone and can never be relived or re-experienced. (unless you're Michael J Fox !!)

I've looked at emotion too. Is this just more thought? It feels like emotion is a physical response to thought. I can invoke an emotional reaction by accessing a past memory for example an embarrassing event in the past. But the emotion comes after the memory and lasts longer. Emotion and thought feed off each other to keep the reaction going - but I'm not experiencing the actual event again. It cannot be real. The emotional response is a remembered response, ie a response that's attached to the memory. I can't do anything to change this, and every time I think of this event, the reaction will be the same. As memories fade with age, it seems that emotional connections with them fade too. So emotion and memory are connected.

Emotional response about past events is always the same as the emotion at the actual time of the event. So If I look back at an embarrassing event I still feel embarrassment even though if a similar event happened now I would possibly just laugh it off - because I'm older and handle situations differently. But I can't apply my new way of handling things to the past - I still feel the original emotion. So emotion and memory are interlinked for definite.

So is it right to say thought and memory are roughly the same. Thought can seem to cause and emotion because of past emotions being associated with past events.

OK next time you play the guitar or take photographs notice whether ‘I’ is involved before, during or after.

I cant notice an I making decisions about taking photographs. I took some photo's today for my daughters birthday, and noticed that when the decision to press the shutter was made it was mostly instinct - there is no time to think really. I only imagine how the final picture will look but it's not how "I" want it to look it's weather that present instant is a good moment to capture.
Afterward I sort through all the photo's and make decisions as to which to keep and which to bin. This is done on feel mostly unless there is a definite fundamental fault with the photo.

I'm trying very hard to see if an I is involved in anything I do. It feels very strongly as if there is sometimes especially when I'm not listening to messages from my body e.g My body says it's tired, but "I" don't want to go to bed yet. That feels like an I making that choice. I know that's not the case but it really feels like it is.

Sorry !! I'll go and stand in the corner !!
Feels like I'm stuck here a little bit with this issue.

Look forward to hearing from you ..

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

I've been trying to look more and not think so much. I don't feel like I'm good at looking !! I sometimes feel like a can almost move across into a different perception especially when I'm outside looking at the trees etc. But then It seems just out of reach and the feeling is gone almost as soon as it arrived.

Feeling? Or thought?

I can't separate thought from memory, even when thought appears to be predictive it still has an element of memory with it.

Fabulous! Now see how often you spot this! Track how often a future thought or a past thought pops up! What percentage of thoughts do they take up?

I've looked at emotion too. Is this just more thought?

WOW! Now test this! Verify it! Is it?

It feels like emotion is a physical response to thought. I can invoke an emotional reaction by accessing a past memory for example an embarrassing event in the past. But the emotion comes after the memory and lasts longer. Emotion and thought feed off each other to keep the reaction going - but I'm not experiencing the actual event again. It cannot be real. The emotional response is a remembered response, ie a response that's attached to the memory. I can't do anything to change this, and every time I think of this event, the reaction will be the same. As memories fade with age, it seems that emotional connections with them fade too. So emotion and memory are connected.

OK – BUT – once the response is noticed – does it keep repeating exactly? Or is that what thought says?

Emotional response about past events is always the same as the emotion at the actual time of the event. So If I look back at an embarrassing event I still feel embarrassment even though if a similar event happened now I would possibly just laugh it off - because I'm older and handle situations differently.

How can you know for sure? You cannot relive the past – you stated that earlier. So you are remembering! And how accurate is memory? Really? What is being experienced is a memory thought – but a thought none the less. Do you see this?

So is it right to say thought and memory are roughly the same. Thought can seem to cause and emotion because of past emotions being associated with past events.

But does it? To actually cause an emotional response – that would be power – can a thought actually do that? OR does it just say it does! Keep looking till you are sure!

I cant notice an I making decisions about taking photographs. I took some photo's today for my daughters birthday, and noticed that when the decision to press the shutter was made it was mostly instinct - there is no time to think really. I only imagine how the final picture will look but it's not how "I" want it to look it's weather that present instant is a good moment to capture.

But is there a you controlling or deciding any aspect of this?

Afterward I sort through all the photo's and make decisions as to which to keep and which to bin. This is done on feel mostly unless there is a definite fundamental fault with the photo.

OK – so there is a you here deciding? Now test this again. Deciding may be happening – but locate where this you is that is doing the deciding? Pin point ‘you’! Is it just thought saying that it is doing this again? Verify!

I'm trying very hard to see if an I is involved in anything I do. It feels very strongly as if there is sometimes especially when I'm not listening to messages from my body e.g My body says it's tired, but "I" don't want to go to bed yet. That feels like an I making that choice. I know that's not the case but it really feels like it is.

When the body wants to sleep – is there anything in the world that can stop it? If the "I" don't want to go to bed yet” thought wasn’t there – would there be confusion? And the word tiredness – is that a label? A story thought about a sensation? So this so called tiredness – sit with that sensation – when does the label ‘Im tired’ come in? Before, during or after? Can you push that label aside gently and actually look at the sensation tiredness? Is it tired? Can you see that thought hanging over it explaining it?

Sorry !! I'll go and stand in the corner !!

LOL. Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi again Sarah,

Feeling? Or thought?

Definitely Feeling !!

Fabulous! Now see how often you spot this! Track how often a future thought or a past thought pops up! What percentage of thoughts do they take up?

100%! Thoughts are definitely either future or past. It struck me last night that this is quite easy to see (I don't know how I missed it before). This is because "NOW" doesn't need to be remembered and it doesn't need to be planned for or second guessed. I don't seem to be able to see thought being particularly active for the immediate moment ! It appears to stop when noticing or awareness is centered in the present moment. The only thing that seems to be still present is labeling but even then, that's off the pace, so is technically in the past!! Labeling happens after awareness happens even if just a fraction of a second after.

Maybe thought cant exist in the the exact present !!

Now about emotion being just more thought ...... I have to confess I'm struggling with this . But I have made some other investigations into thought and reaction to thought (which may or may not be emotion).

I suppose this is a bit like the "think yourself happy exercise" that you gave me. I've tried a few experiments on thinking about stuff and observing reactions ..

- I can't get out of breath by thinking about running , but ...
- I can feel adrenalin rising in my body when thinking about stressful situations .

- I can get close to tears by thinking about sad events either past or predictive, but
- I can't change my mood to happy by thinking about a past happy time.

- I cant get angry by just thinking about anger, but
- Watching a suspense film can get adrenalin and anger going even though it's not real !!

I can't make sense of these observations, some seem to prove that it's all thought, then others seem to prove the opposite ??

How can you know for sure? You cannot relive the past – you stated that earlier. So you are remembering! And how accurate is memory? Really? What is being experienced is a memory thought – but a thought none the less. Do you see this?

Yes I do see the logic of this. But why are some memory thoughts accompanied by what seems like physical reaction, and some aren't ??

OK – so there is a you here deciding? Now test this again. Deciding may be happening – but locate where this you is that is doing the deciding? Pin point ‘you’! Is it just thought saying that it is doing this again? Verify!

Right I'm working on this. But I need to get the emotion/thought thing sorted out first because it's really bugging me ... I can't shake it !

Thanks for your patience ,

take care

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

100%! Thoughts are definitely either future or past. It struck me last night that this is quite easy to see (I don't know how I missed it before). This is because "NOW" doesn't need to be remembered and it doesn't need to be planned for or second guessed. I don't seem to be able to see thought being particularly active for the immediate moment ! It appears to stop when noticing or awareness is centered in the present moment. The only thing that seems to be still present is labeling but even then, that's off the pace, so is technically in the past!! Labeling happens after awareness happens even if just a fraction of a second after.

WOW!!!!!!!!! What else do you need to know! Sit with THIS. BE with this!

I can feel adrenalin rising in my body when thinking about stressful situations. I can get close to tears by thinking about sad events either past or predictive. Watching a suspense film can get adrenalin and anger going even though it's not real !!

Which of these do ‘you’ do? Any? OR do they just happen?

I can't make sense of these observations, some seem to prove that it's all thought, then others seem to prove the opposite ??

Where is this you that cant make sense here? Thoughts trying to understand? Would that be thoughts trying to understand thoughts? LOL. Thoughts will never understand what you wrote above! They are always wanting more. Something else rather than what is – you see this already! Now – does it matter what they want? If so to what? Another thought? Look.

Yes I do see the logic of this. But why are some memory thoughts accompanied by what seems like physical reaction, and some aren't ??

Well – in a nutshell – learnt response or habit! Have a look yourself.

Right I'm working on this. But I need to get the emotion/thought thing sorted out first because it's really bugging me ... I can't shake it !

Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’? Watch closely as decisions happen - what is noticed?
What is bugged? Thoughts?
No patience required Rich! Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

I'm going to have to take some more time to check out if there is a "me" making any decisions as you have pointed out.

Feel like I'm getting a bit better at looking now, and I'm still taking time to absorb the "thought has nothing to say about the present" realisation, and what that really means.

I'm also working on what is experienced when thought stops? It appears that when thought has nothing to say, usually when awareness is in the present, what or who is aware of this stopping ? There is an awareness that thought has stopped, but is it "me" that is aware or is it just awareness without the "me". If there is no "me" then what experiences stuff ? Is it necessary to have anything experiencing the experience for experience to happen ?

I' know ! ..... You're supposed to be asking the questions :-)

Anyway will be in touch soon. But I need more time to look at this - and to get the knots out of my brain !!!!

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich
Take as much time as you need – I know I give you a lot and you are right – you do need time to absorb – BUT careful of thought explaining and doing its thing! Absorbing means just let that realization just hang. That’s it! Doesn’t NEED anything ‘doing’ with it – that would be thought wanting to do its thing AGAIN! Does this make sense?

I'm also working on what is experienced when thought stops? It appears that when thought has nothing to say, usually when awareness is in the present, what or who is aware of this stopping ? There is an awareness that thought has stopped, but is it "me" that is aware or is it just awareness without the "me". If there is no "me" then what experiences stuff ? Is it necessary to have anything experiencing the experience for experience to happen ?

OK – with what notices – does it have to be labeled? The thing is that there is something there that DOES notice – yes? Now – does that something go anywhere? Or is it always there? Also is it a ‘thing’ like an object? In fact can you even see it at all?
Im going back to the mirror analogy – or the screen analogy – images and reflections move across and appear on the screen or mirror – do either affect the mirror or screen?
Big hugs Sarah xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich - We are having some DIY done in our computer room - so I might vanish! Im hoping not! I should be back Sunday evening hopefully - Ill keep you posted if we are not back up and running. Sorry for the inconvenience and interruption.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

Hope you got back up and running OK this weekend . I've been sort of tied up with visiting relatives this weekend so I'm not much further on from where we left off on Friday. I'm hoping to get back on track during this week so I will post again soon.

Take care,

Rich

[Sarah7]

Thats fine Rich.
Have not finished DIY yet!
Hugs Sarah xx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

Sorry for the brief break I've taken. I intended to spend more time looking at some of the stuff you've guided me to, but It's not worked out quite like that due to a fairly busy family time over the past few days. So sorry for that.

I've noticed though, that since I've been distracted with other stuff going on, I seem to have gone a bit backwards in being able to really look. It's as if my thoughts have seized the initiative again - strange but true !!

BUT careful of thought explaining and doing its thing! Absorbing means just let that realization just hang. That’s it! Doesn’t NEED anything ‘doing’ with it – that would be thought wanting to do its thing AGAIN! Does this make sense?

OK. I know what you're saying here. Thought seems to be very enticing, always wanting to over analyze and create a story about this and what it means.

OK – with what notices – does it have to be labeled? The thing is that there is something there that DOES notice – yes? Now – does that something go anywhere? Or is it always there? Also is it a ‘thing’ like an object? In fact can you even see it at all?

Yes there is something that does notice otherwise how would the action of noticing be recognised ? So I think it's safe to say that there is something. The only thing I'm cautious about here is that it's not just another "I" waiting to take over. Like the layers of the onion we spoke about before ?
I think, whatever it is, it's always there but sometimes obscured by thought of all kinds including memory and emotion, so it's hard to see. I can't see it properly yet, but I imagine it to be not an object but kind of a boundary beyond which is a completely unknown thing/area/space, I don't know how to describe it !! That sounds a bit weird I suppose, but it's not really describable. I can't get close to it yet I don't think.

Im going back to the mirror analogy – or the screen analogy – images and reflections move across and appear on the screen or mirror – do either affect the mirror or screen?

I get the logic of this analogy and I see what you are trying to convey.

This is probably thought thinking mostly, but I've kind of pictured the whole mechanism as "I" being a middle man or an "agent" of reality or experience . So, thoughts happen - they just do, and the agent intercepts them and presents them as if they are the agents creation. In other words "I" takes ownership of thought and presents it as "these are my thoughts". Same with experience. "I" takes ownership of each experience and presents it as "my experience". But if we are saying that "I" is just another thought, then really there is only experience, experienced by that boundary thing I tried to describe above - and there is no need for an agent at all !!

That all makes a nice simple model to work with. There are only two happenings, event and experiencing of event.
The only thing now is to prove that "I" is just a thought. That's where I'm a bit stuck !! Am I getting ahead of myself here ??

Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’? Watch closely as decisions happen - what is noticed?

Well, I'm struggling with this a bit too. Mostly because by the time I remember to look, the decision has already been made. If I feel thirsty I go with this for a bit, thinking "I need a drink", but exactly when I decide to go and get a glass and have a drink of water is a mystery at the moment. I will try harder to look !!

Sorry I'm not further on with this ..

Take care

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

I've noticed though, that since I've been distracted with other stuff going on, I seem to have gone a bit backwards in being able to really look. It's as if my thoughts have seized the initiative again - strange but true !!

‘This’ does seem to require a certain commitment. It does help if looking is done regularly and a certain momentum is happening.

OK. I know what you're saying here. Thought seems to be very enticing, always wanting to over analyze and create a story about this and what it means.

Exactly!

Yes there is something that does notice otherwise how would the action of noticing be recognised ? So I think it's safe to say that there is something. The only thing I'm cautious about here is that it's not just another "I" waiting to take over. Like the layers of the onion we spoke about before ?

Well what do you see when you look? Do you see ‘anything’ or ‘nothing’?

I think, whatever it is, it's always there but sometimes obscured by thought of all kinds including memory and emotion, so it's hard to see. I can't see it properly yet, but I imagine it to be not an object but kind of a boundary beyond which is a completely unknown thing/area/space, I don't know how to describe it !! That sounds a bit weird I suppose, but it's not really describable. I can't get close to it yet I don't think.

Lovely! Now don't think it! Look!

This is probably thought thinking mostly, but I've kind of pictured the whole mechanism as "I" being a middle man or an "agent" of reality or experience . So, thoughts happen - they just do, and the agent intercepts them and presents them as if they are the agents creation. In other words "I" takes ownership of thought and presents it as "these are my thoughts". Same with experience. "I" takes ownership of each experience and presents it as "my experience". But if we are saying that "I" is just another thought, then really there is only experience, experienced by that boundary thing I tried to describe above - and there is no need for an agent at all !!

YES!!!!! Now verify this!

That all makes a nice simple model to work with. There are only two happenings, event and experiencing of event.

Is this thought dividing again?

The only thing now is to prove that "I" is just a thought. That's where I'm a bit stuck !! Am I getting ahead of myself here ??

No – just look. Can you see a ‘you’ in there, or anywhere? Where is this controller?

Well, I'm struggling with this a bit too. Mostly because by the time I remember to look, the decision has already been made. If I feel thirsty I go with this for a bit, thinking "I need a drink", but exactly when I decide to go and get a glass and have a drink of water is a mystery at the moment. I will try harder to look !!

OK – not to worry – if forgetting happens just pick up when remembering happens – doesn’t actually matter what the decision is! OK!
Hugs Sarah xxx