Thread for Rip

[Rip]

PS I keep wanting to say something like the more the experience of the self loosens, the more vivid, real and alive everything is, the more experience is full, effortless, fluid. Words don't do it justice, but I seem to want to say this because this is so strongly not an experience of nothingness or of nihilism.

[Hare]

Hi Rip,

Again, great observations.

So experience unfolds in awareness. Seeing, sounds, touch, body sensation. There is fluidity, punctuated by the frequent efforts of thought to label, appropriate, make something of, make 'me' of experience. There is just this amazing unfolding experience, which seems only to narrow down when I listen to the 'me' thoughts, when I believe the content of thought.

Interesting! Let's explore this further.

Write down what your immediate experience is for 5 or 10 minutes, using 'I', 'my' etc in the normal way, as in: "I am typing on the keyboard of my computer. I can hear sounds of the television downstairs and a buzzing sound..etc"

Now do the same but without using personal pronouns: "typing, sound of buzzing, contracted sensations in the belly, sound of voices, pressure of bottom on seat...etc"

Notice the effect of each. What is the difference? Which form of expression is closer to truth?

now looking in the body and at sensation there, because I think that is where something is holding on

Is there 'something' or 'someone' holding on? Or just sensations (contracted?) labeled afterwards by thought as holding on?

Come back to DE of body sensations - just the direct sensations, not any mental image 'added on'. Can you find the boundary between inside and outside? Can you in fact experience 'inside' and 'outside'? Or are these assumed /conceptualised in thought?

Now let's take sound - sounds outside such as a passing car, plane or whatever are great - or just whatever is there. Close your eyes and experience just the direct sensation of sound. Notice what the mind is adding to the experience. Is there a subtle mental image, as the mind tries to place a sound in space? Is the dimension of space actually there in DE? Or is it added on - a conceptualisation? Does space exist in DE?

I will keep looking

Looking is happening! But what does the 'I' in this sentence point to, in DE?

Lovely to hear about the relaxed ordinariness of this process.

Enjoy!

x H

[Rip]

Hi Hare

Looks like a beautiful day out there.

Write down what your immediate experience is for 5 or 10 minutes, using 'I', 'my' etc in the normal way, as in: "I am typing on the keyboard of my computer. I can hear sounds of the television downstairs and a buzzing sound..etc"

Now do the same but without using personal pronouns: "typing, sound of buzzing, contracted sensations in the belly, sound of voices, pressure of bottom on seat...etc"

Notice the effect of each. What is the difference? Which form of expression is closer to truth?

Have just done this and really interesting. As I did the first part the effect was less direct, it was like writing like that began to distance myself from the actual experience, contract down to the 'I' I was writing about. It was all about 'me' Also there was frustration with the iPad keyboard that I haven't experienced for a while, like it was slowing me down, not doing what 'I' wanted.

The second part allowed the DE to come back in. Experience slowed down, became more vivid again. There was interest in the experience much more than what was being written, so much that the writing slowed down too, it was hard to keep it up or want to keep it up. The only tightness was when I almost wrote 'I' and the belly tightened, probably a thought telling me that was wrong but I didn't catch it. Overall yes the second version feels closer to truth now, more in line with what is really happening. This was quite a surprise.

"now looking in the body and at sensation there, because I think that is where something is holding on"

Is there 'something' or 'someone' holding on? Or just sensations (contracted?) labeled afterwards by thought as holding on?

This has changed since reading this, less holding on, or I can't find it. I will stay with this today and report back.

Come back to DE of body sensations - just the direct sensations, not any mental image 'added on'. Can you find the boundary between inside and outside? Can you in fact experience 'inside' and 'outside'? Or are these assumed /conceptualised in thought?

Nope, can't find a boundary, or find a difference between inside and outside in experience. Sensation is just there, projecting outside any imagined boundary or sense of the body in space. So in DE this imagined shape of body distorts, expands, the boundary dissolves and there is just sensation in space. And yes I think the space part is still imagined and projected. In DE there is just seeing form, hearing sound, feeling sensation. I think the space part is still 'me' trying to fit it all in a picture.

Now let's take sound. Close your eyes and experience just the direct sensation of sound. Notice what the mind is adding to the experience. Is there a subtle mental image, as the mind tries to place a sound in space? Is the dimension of space actually there in DE? Or is it added on - a conceptualisation? Does space exist in DE?

I will do more of this today, because right now in my room the sounds are subtle. But there is just sound, no separation between the sound and the experience if it. Yes there are subtle efforts to identify, to place in space. As I said above I think space is a projection. I can't find it in DE, not really, except I think it is there in seeing. In hearing it is clearer that space is a mental projection. In seeing it is less clear, the mind wants there to be space there to put things into.

"I will keep looking"

Looking is happening! But what does the 'I' in this sentence point to, in DE?

There is just awareness, the awakeness of awareness. I think that's what the 'I' is trying constantly to appropriate. This seems a bit shocking right now!

Rip xx

[Hare]

Hi!
On phone so excuse no quote function & any typos

"as I said above I think space is a projection".

Who said? Who thinks?

Is there a self saying, writing or thinking? Or are words and thoughts simply arising? Which is it? Look.

To look at space as a projection with eyes open (yes agree it's to 'see' with eyes closed, tho not everyone finds this) close or cover one eye and look from the other. What is actually seen? Shapes? Colours? Anything else? Is it possible to directly 'see' space? Or is space added on by mind as it 'makes sense' of DE?

Is awareness or awakeness "me" or 'self'? Or is it just awareness / awakeness? Which is true?

Let's look at time now. Choose 3 significant incidents in 'your' life story. Eg being born on a certain date. Can a 'you' be found in DE now - the 'me' that was born that date? Or is this a story told by mind? What about an incident that can be brought up in memory? Is there a 'you' this happened to anywhere to be found in DE? What is memory? Images, thoughts and story? Anything else?

Can this imputed 'me' or 'I' be found in any way in DE?

X H

[Hare]

That should have said easier to 'see' with eyes closed x

[Rip]

Hi Hare

Who said? Who thinks?

Is there a self saying, writing or thinking? Or are words and thoughts simply arising? Which is it? Look.

Experience happens in DE, arises in awareness. Thoughts arise, in dependence on experience or other thoughts. Thought tries to interpret experience and puts it into words. This happens a LOT. All this happens in awareness. The only 'I' is in thoughts arising. They come and go and have no effect on experience it seems, except sometimes feeling arises with them. Action happens on the basis of sense experience too, quite spontaneously, and occasionally on the basis of thought. The more thought is seen to arise and cease in awareness, with more and more detachment from content, the less action is driven by thought.

To look at space as a projection with eyes open, close or cover one eye and look from the other. What is actually seen? Shapes? Colours? Anything else? Is it possible to directly 'see' space? Or is space added on by mind as it 'makes sense' of DE?

Actually either with one or both eyes open there is just form, colour, light and dark. With two eyes open there is more of a sense of depth, but nothing in DE shows that that is space. The illusion of space is created by the way seeing happens as well as in thought. This feels strange though, not easy to take in.

Is awareness or awakeness "me" or 'self'? Or is it just awareness / awakeness? Which is true?

Awareness/awakeness is vast and there is no edge to it or centre. There is a view that wants to believe it is self, that awareness has a centre that is a self or corresponds with the mental image of this body. A LOT of thought arises that tries to support this. But in DE there is no centre, there is no difference between inside and outside the body, there is just awareness.

Let's look at time now. Choose 3 significant incidents in 'your' life story. Eg being born on a certain date. Can a 'you' be found in DE now - the 'me' that was born that date? Or is this a story told by mind? What about an incident that can be brought up in memory? Is there a 'you' this happened to anywhere to be found in DE? What is memory? Images, thoughts and story? Anything else?

This was interesting. No there is nothing in DE in this moment that connects with the 'me' that was born 47 years ago. Nothing at all, not even a memory, only the thought that it happened and that it happened 'to me', also some images based on things others have told me about my birth. When I look for incidents in the past there is memory - an image or series of images plus the thought 'that was me' 'I did that' 'I was there'. For a strong memory there might be a gut feeling that arises now when the images or thoughts come, an echo of that experience in the past that comes and goes. So yes memory is just story, thought. Nothing else. There is nothing here and now in DE that connects with that 'me' in the past.

What was interesting was doing this late last night in relation to a little earlier in the day. Was there anything in DE that connected with 'me' 45 minutes before when I was out with a friend? All I could find was this mental image of me. Seeing my watch there was the thought 'that was there. My body/I was there' except that the watch had a different time on it so it wasn't that same. A bit strange.

So overall in DE it is not possible to find the 'me' from any time in the past. The only thing also present in DE now is seeing the physical body (eg arm with watch) that thought identifies as the same as in the thoughts and images from the past.

Love Rip xx



Can this imputed 'me' or 'I' be found in any way in DE?

[Hare]

Hi Rip,

More great observations.

So far the 'self' has only been found in the content of thought, idea and belief. It is assumed to be there, but IS it in fact there?

Can a separate self of any kind whatsoever actually be found or directly experienced? Yes or no?

Or is the self-entity JUST an idea, thought or belief and nothing more? Yes or no?

Can something that is just an idea or thought be said to really exist? Imagine a glass of water as vividly as you can. Can you drink it?

x H

[Rip]

Hi Hare

So far the 'self' has only been found in the content of thought, idea and belief. It is assumed to be there, but IS it in fact there?

Can a separate self of any kind whatsoever actually be found or directly experienced? Yes or no?

No. There is no separate self in direct experience. Nothing separate, and nothing that is 'me'. Except as you say in the content of thought. There is a definite sense of wanting a self to exist, of wanting this to be believed, of trying to keep up the illusion in thoughts and ideas. But that's all there is in experience. That's as close as it gets.

Or is the self-entity JUST an idea, thought or belief and nothing more? Yes or no?

That's it. Yes.

Can something that is just an idea or thought be said to really exist? Imagine a glass of water as vividly as you can. Can you drink it?

No. No matter how vivid or strong the image, or how strong is the wanting it to be real. It's just not there.

Love Rip xx

[Hare]

Hi Rip,

Beautiful observing.

There is a definite sense of wanting a self to exist, of wanting this to be believed, of trying to keep up the illusion in thoughts and ideas.

So there is wanting, but nobody who wants? Just a longstanding habit rolling on? Anything else?

Remember the difference, writing down experience and constantly attributing an 'I' - or not?

Belief in a separate self has had important evolutionary uses. It may be helpful to 'thank' this belief for getting'you' thus far. It may feel appropriate, in a spirit of kindness, to 'tell' this belief in the illusion of self that it is no longer needed.

In this very moment, what if anything is getting in the way of complete peace?

In DE, right now, is anything missing? Is there anything that needs to be added?

x H

[Rip]

Hi Hare

So there is wanting, but nobody who wants? Just a longstanding habit rolling on? Anything else?

Yes, just the wanting. More or less insistent at different times, a strong strong habit rolling on as you say. At times the 'me' 'mine' thoughts bring strong feelings too, but that's all that is, strong as they can be. There isn't anything else and that is really fine most of the time, because alongside that is all the fullness of experience, so much more straightforward now the wanting is seen as it is.

Remember the difference, writing down experience and constantly attributing an 'I' - or not?

Yes that was really great.

Belief in a separate self has had important evolutionary uses. It may be helpful to 'thank' this belief for getting'you' thus far. It may feel appropriate, in a spirit of kindness, to 'tell' this belief in the illusion of self that it is no longer needed.

Thanks, that is lovely. Really helpful.

In this very moment, what if anything is getting in the way of complete peace?

Oh, that's a difficult question! To be honest there is, relatively a LOT of peace right now compared to a week ago. There is a clarity that wasn't there, a seeing that the constant selfing thoughts are trying to do just that - create and maintain this belief in a separate self - but that that is seen now for what it is. In DE there is frequently peace, a sense of wholeness, often a quiet joy. But at the same time there arises craving and irritation, generally precipitated by thoughts about 'me' and what 'I' want or need, don't want or like, or what someone else may or may not be doing in relation to 'me'. So that, the ongoing attempt to keep the self illusion going, and what arises out of that, is the main thing that is in the way of complete peace. And all that varies in intensity and in how quickly it changes. But that's really OK because the process continues, there is always more.

In DE, right now, is anything missing? Is there anything that needs to be added?

No there is nothing missing. Experience unfolds and doesn't feel separate. It doesn't feel like more is needed, not in the moment. There have been several times in this process where the thought has arisen, 'Oh, it would be OK to die now, it would be fine,' meaning in the physical sense. Not that I am planning on it, but you never know.

Rip xx

[Hare]

Hi Rip,

All good! This guiding has been a total joy.

No there is nothing missing. Experience unfolds and doesn't feel separate. It doesn't feel like more is needed, not in the moment.

And the moment is always there, always available! Magic! :-)

It sounds like belief in the illusion of self has been seen through, but 'selfing' - the habit of behaving as if there is a self - is observed to continue. This is not a problem unless we make it one! Observe emotions (sensations + thought-story?) and thoughts doing their thing, without identifying with the content. (Or at least, not for long!)

Like a child growing up who realises Santa isn't real - once she knows that, she won't ever go back to that childish belief - seeing through the illusion of self is simply a shift in view or perspective. It doesn't mean one will be in any particular state of mind from now on, such as always expansive. But it sounds like you're pretty clear on this.

OK! Now please answer the following questions - fully please - (no one-word answers). Take them one or two at a time if you like, take as much time as needed.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Love x H

[Rip]

Hi Hare

Thanks so much for this! It has been amazing from my end too, you just seemed to keep pointing in the right place at the right time, each time it was needed.

I am in Florence at this conference now and will answer a few questions now and the last ones over the next day or two. Writing it on my phone so haven't quoted the questions.

1. No, there is no separate self - 'me' or 'I' anywhere in experience. There is sense experience, feeling, unfolding action, thought. There is wanting there to be a self, and the thoughts that try and maintain that, but no self. There never was and never will be.

2. The illusion of a separate self is the mistaken idea/belief that there is a self that is separate from other beings, objects and experience, that this self is controlling action and to some extent thought and experience, and that this self has always been there and will always be there.

I don't know when the illusion starts. Probably as soon as we are conscious although it may well change during early childhood. It has always been there in my experience.

There is a constant thought process working to keep the illusion going. In my experience thoughts like 'I like this' 'I want to do that' 'I am a person who does that' 'I can't do that!' in response to what is seen or heard in particular, work to keep up the illusion. Even thoughts like 'that is annoying' 'I am annoyed' 'I love this' 'I'm scared about that' 'I'm happy' and others about other people or events or objects like 'don't do that' 'they think I'm like this' 'it's not working' 'it's annoying' (not infrequent!) all serve to keep it going. Thoughts refer to the past or future as well as present 'I was there' 'I did that' 'I have always done this' 'I will do that' They also work to give the illusion that the self is controlling action: 'I am hungry' 'I want to do this' 'I am going to eat that cake' 'I don't want to get up' while in the moment to moment experience the action is often already happening and the thought is commenting on it and trying to take ownership of it.

3. How it feels to see this right now is calm and clear and for the most part happy. Definitely less driven, the sense that something has let go. In the first couple of days there was some fear as well as this incredible curiosity and sense of wonder, feeling closer to everything, wanting to touch everything. The curiosity has calmed down now - still there but more subtle. The fear gradually let go. There was a point when I said 'there's something holding on in my gut' and you asked me to look deeper there and it slowly just let go. It arises now only with particular thoughts about 'me' and it lets go when the thought is seen. For the most part I have let experience unfold, tried to just look, without being concerned about the thoughts that are trying to make sense of this, trying to figure it out, and that is ongoing.

There a lot of difference between now and before this started, and more will probably unfold in time. The main thing is that the thoughts happen, as above, but the 'I' 'me' part isn't believed so they don't carry the same weight, they are experienced as empty. Each time that happens there is a little bubble of relief, sometimes joy, and overall experience has slowed down and is much less driven.

There are momentary, sometimes longer, times when unpleasant feeling arises along with thoughts, they are believed for a short time, but then the thought is seen clearly and the feeling lets go. Experience is fluid and unfolds spontaneously. Actions happen and then thoughts arise which try and indicate that the 'self' has chosen the action. Overall, whether in relation to sense experience or action, there is very little resistance except during the periods when thoughts are believed for a short while.

There have been periods in the past when I have seen the emptiness of the content of thought, sometimes for extended periods and often on retreat or in crucial situations, but I haven't seen before that these thoughts are constantly trying to create 'me' and I haven't seen thought commenting on action and trying to take ownership of it before.

4. The last bit that pushed me over was the simple 'imagine a glass of water as vividly as you can. Can you drink it?' There was a bubble of relief in response to that, some tears of relief. That has happened a few times in the process but that was the last. Like the whole process started and ended with you saying 'there's no self and never has been' and each time I felt there was something holding on you would prompt me to look there, and there would be nothing there. There has been a definite number of steps to the unfolding of this and I can say more about that in more detail if you would like me to.

I will do the last two in the next couple of days.

Rip xx

[Hare]

Hi Rip,

Nice answers!

There is wanting there to be a self

Have a look at this wanting - and emotion generally - and let me know what's there. Sensations? Stories in thought? If the story is not believed, what is left in DE?

And please continue with the other questions.

Enjoy Florence!

x H

[Hare]

Hi again,

There is wanting there to be a self

A better phrasing of the question in the last post would be:

Is there "wanting to be a self" in DE? Have a look and let me know what's found.

Please do this before continuing with the other questions.

love H

[Rip]

Hi Hare

A better phrasing of the question in the last post would be:

Is there "wanting to be a self" in DE? Have a look and let me know what's found.

No, sorry, that's not right. The wanting was there in the beginning of the process but it's not there now. In DE there is no sense of wanting. In the moment there is no sense of separation from anything else, no sense of lacking anything.

Thoughts arise in support of the idea of 'me' and 'mine'. That is the only evidence of any wanting. That is an assumption because the thoughts may be arising now purely out of habit.

You asked me about emotion generally and I will go on and say a bit more about this now. This is the answer to question 6, and then I will go back to 5.

6) Anything to add?

This has felt like a relatively quick process, although it is possible to see experiences in the past that have contributed, so it does feel like very early days to be describing some of this.

It seems more accurate now to say, in answer to question 4, that what pushed me over into seeing was when you prompted me to look into the experience of the 'holding on' feeling in the gut. I thought at the time that this was where the self was still holding on, and when you suggested looking deeper, was it just feeling there, it quietly let go. Because of course there was nothing there. How could the self be holding on there? Where? It seems crazy to think it now.

But at the time the feeling in the gut, which was always there but strongest when thoughts of 'me' and 'mine' arose, would alternate between a sense of wanting/craving and a sense of not wanting/aversion. A definite physical sense of grasping and of pushing away, depending on whether the thoughts were those of attraction or aversion. So for a day or so it felt like that was where 'I' was acting from, that that was where choices were made, that a combination of that gut feeling plus the thoughts that were arising at the same time was the actual wanting of the self to exist. But after you asked me to look deeper there, and after the exercises around action and choice, the gut feeling quietly dissolved. There was no big moment, just a sense of slowly coming to clarity like water becoming clear.

Emotion now is very different to before. Most of the time the body feels like a new one! More relaxed over a sustained period than maybe it has ever been, a sense of moving freely, nothing holding on. Just momentary tension in the gut when thoughts of me are believed before they are seen/remembered to be empty and the feeling lets go. There have been irritation and craving too at times, more at times of a lot of external stimulation and thoughts arising in response to that. But more often than not there is a sense of quiet calm, of everything being just as it should be.

That's it for question 6. Question 5 will come later tonight or tomorrow...

Love Rip xxx