Looking for an Order Member from Triratna to guide

[Ragnor]

When I rest in awareness I experience space, endless space. There is no beginning, no end, no thing, no doer, just 'being' not being as a thing but awareness. I smile, smile because in this awareness I am not separate, because those barriers are gone.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK. So this aware space -- does it have any characteristics of a personal self? Does it have an age, a gender, an occupation, a family, is it located somewhere (in the head? in the body?).

What is it that 'rests in awareness' -- is awareness a 'state' experienced by some 'thing'?

[Ragnor]

Just got in from work to be greeted by the cat, who I sat stroking saying hello to. In that awareness , in that direct experience I was suddenly conscious that there was no sense of age , gender, occupation as you ask. It wasn't anywhere , it just was, a process of conditions for want of a better term coming together but not around a point or place just simply there. If you ask well where I'd say no where!!

When there is fear or I'm threatened, challenged all of a sudden that's when I experience a me, mine, myself. However if I stop and ask myself what is this? energy relaxes in the body, senses, mind; that sense of 'I' dissolves in direct experience I'm trying not to conceptualise and explain why - direct experience clarifies, expands not into anything but once again into, no thing, no where.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK great. I love cats too.

If you look closely – I'm stressing the importance of attending to the ‘body’ sensations and not thoughts about sensations – feel into the energetic movements we’ve been looking at – you can see there are only two basic movements – expansion and contraction.

When we reach out to ‘others’ with love – like with your cat – there is expansion – this can be quite overwhelming at times since as you say it has no edges or barriers anywhere – so it is very threatening to the ‘self view’ which is constructed through the placing of barriers. So when you say:

When there is fear or I'm threatened, challenged all of a sudden that's when I experience a me, mine, myself.

What does that FEEL like? It would be a contraction, right, everything closes down and is held on to in a defensive move.

Can you notice throughout the day that this movement from contraction to expansion is a characteristic of every task/encounter – there is a constant energetic movement in these two directions?


This sense of contraction you could call ‘selfing’ – it’s a process an energetic movement. Selfing doesn’t however mean there is a real self doing it – it’s just a way of describing how energy contracts.


‘Selfing’ isn’t the problem – it’s believing that this ‘sense of self’ refers to something in reality that we need to look at. Take this analogy – I can see a rainbow in the sky – I can sense it right, but I don’t rush off to find the pot of gold at its base. Why? Because I know it’s just a trick of the light – I can still see it though! ‘Sense of self’ works in the same way – it’s just a coming together of a set of conditions which are then mistaken for something real and permanent and we spend time trying to ‘improve’ or ‘get rid of’ it – but there is no-thing there.

However if I stop and ask myself what is this? energy relaxes in the body, senses, mind; that sense of 'I' dissolves in direct experience I'm trying not to conceptualise and explain why - direct experience clarifies, expands not into anything but once again into, no thing, no where.

OK great – that’s a good way to deal with this ‘selfing habit’.

So next time (almost certainly something will trigger this today!) you feel this selfing contraction – look to see what is really going on – has a real self suddenly appeared or are you mis-labelling or misdiagnosing what is a simple energetic contraction?

[Ragnor]

That's really helpful. I've experienced what you're talking about - will look closer tomorrow focus on body sensations.

[Ragnor]

Ok - interesting you mention love working with DE has had a big impact on family relationships. I feel connected, sometimes particularly when I get in from work - I am quite literally contracted want to be left alone. Work on DE means I am more open available, the only way I can explain it is there is no need for a barrier or me time because there is no me!

Again stood on school yard awareness was very expansive open to sound, images, etc. energy had a very expansive engaging curious tone. Contrasting I was trying to retrieve some information from a pen drive which my computer was not registering. Energy gathered in my stomach, my heart raced, my stomach contracted with a feeling of. 'Butterflies' . Quickly thoughts about what give gathered... Again I asked - what is this... I engaged with the tension and my body softened the energy began to recede. I find if I engage directly with the energetic contraction as you call it - energy begins to shift , move relax and the selfing begins to dissolve.

[Jack'n'theBox]

sometimes particularly when I get in from work - I am quite literally contracted want to be left alone.

Right. But let’s be a bit more precise with language, what does ‘I’ refer to here – is there an actual thing that experiences contraction and expansion? What is it that is contracted?

Work on DE means I am more open available, the only way I can explain it is there is no need for a barrier or me time because there is no me!

Again, let’s just look at this ‘I’ character – what is it that is ‘more available’ – can you describe DE of ‘available’?

Note that there can be a tendency for experience of DE to become a kind of practice or technique that the ‘I’ character uses to improve ‘itself’! It’s a tricky bugger. Have a look to see – is there some ‘thing’ that works with DE (as if DE were somehow separate)?

You say:

I engaged with the tension and my body softened the energy began to recede.

How does noticing of contraction happen? How does easing of tension happen? Is there anything ‘engaging’ with it?

[Ragnor]

No there is no 'i' that is contracted it's an experience of energy contraction felt in bodily sensation, but there is no nothing that experiences, separate from the sensation,

In terms of being more available it's not a thing or I that is available it's simply energy flowing without limitation or barriers or edges not between points or locations just simple flowing. Where other is and I am is not there - there is an experience of not being separated just connection - but not things connected, again the connection doesn't start anywhere or finish anywhere

It's like a koan : everything is connected and at the same time nothing is connected - if that makes sense.

No there is no character or thing that feels improved. I don't notice contraction or expansion - conditions simply change and there is contraction or expansion - a thought may triggers that change but there is no control, it doesn't come an I or me in direct experience it simply happens.

[Jack'n'theBox]

"It's like a koan : everything is connected and at the same time nothing is connected - if that makes sense."

Yes, I get that.

OK so can you say with 100% confidence that when you look:

There is no do-er behind the deed?
No think-er behind the thought?
No experience-er behind the experience?

Is there anything more to do? Has 'seeking' ended?

[Ragnor]

I have answered your questions honestly and openly.

There is an end to seeking in the sense that the answer is right here and always has been.

So this is not the end, paradoxically this is just the beginning!

[Ragnor]

Dialoging with you has never been about an end, getting something, it's about being true, true to experience - tired of the story that is self - that's the only way I can describe it.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK what we do now is I ask you some summing up questions and ask the other guides to look over the answers to see if there are any remaining issues or doubts we might explore. If not then there are a number of post-gate groups that you might like to join and carry on conversations with others about the continuing unfolding of experience. So please take your time and answer from what you see -- not what you think.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Ragnor]

Ok will do - I'll take my time over this as you suggest - it's Thursday am uk time - I'll probably respond on Saturday am uk time .

[Ragnor]

Ok here you go:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

In direct experience there is no experience of self , there is no place within direct experience where ‘self’ resides with a shape, form, age, gender, history, past, future. It’s simply not there…

There has never been a self there, and there never will be. In fact notions of time – future, past, present are not relevant they are just mental or emotional constructs around which a narrative of self is based. However, that’s all they are, a story, a dream, a myth – call it what you like.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

In direct experience there are processes of energetic movement. They are felt in bodily sensations, sometimes this energy is expansive, sometimes not so, contracted in direct experience (not that there is an experiencer of this process – ‘it’ just is) Within these energetic movements, patterns or volitions come together, co-incide: an example I wake: discomfort in the body, tightness in the stomach, nervous energy in the stomach, heart rate increases, thoughts circulation – ‘I need to do this, I need to do that’ more energetic movement – sometimes labelled as emotion – these conditions co-incide – ‘self’ claims these conditions as ‘me’ or ‘I’ : my feelings, my emotions, my anxiety, my things to do… but in direct experience this ‘selfing’ is seen through, is not claimed as ‘mine’ or ‘I’ or me.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Seeing this process or processes in experience has led to a stillness – mental chatter has slowed, on occasions stopped like a blue sky in which clouds have cleared. The story of ‘will’ I am going to do this or that seems like a joke. Prior to this dialogue I had what I would then have described as an intention to undertake further academic study. Over the last week this has been played out in direct experience – chatter ‘you’re not good enough’ ‘you need to improve’ ‘others are undertaking further study, you’ll fall behind if you don’t’. Contraction of energy in the body; tightness etc. Yet as our dialogue has unfolded this ‘story’ or ‘narrative’ has fallen away. Why… there is no ‘me’ to improve… in SEEING, the coming together of these energetic movements has lost its story its narrative its ‘me’ – so conditions collapse – there is no action.

Standing on the street in the morning, has been like a fluid symphony – sounds, sights, smells – without a fixed reference point an ‘I’, no beginning, no end just the arising and ceasing of conditions – like being in water, a truly fluid experience – not ‘my’ experience just experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Why did I look – I gave up… like light shining through curtains – gaps in ‘self’’ began to appear, ‘self’ began to crumble. It wasn’t ‘my’ decision. A conversation with a friend was like a hammer blow to self – in starting to look there was no stopping – the energy behind ‘self’ just simply began to fade.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

All of the above are mental constructs added to experience by ‘self’. All of them assume a fixed reference point from which they originate – my will, my intention, my will, I am in control, not in control, it was my choice. These are all stories added to direct experience. But in direct experience there simply is no will, no decision maker – so there can be no decisions. The illusion of a decision is merely the coming together of conditions – if sufficient energy arises something happens, if not it doesn’t. Conditions, energy at the moment sustain my body, but that will eventually change and death will come. I didn’t decide to scratch my belly just now, it just happened, sufficient conditions came together and the hand moved.
Another experience: door bell rings just now, I put the computer down, sensation in the bladder, full, I go answer the door talk with my mother, sensation again, pressure – I carry on talking, plug in a phone. Pressure, thought – bladder is full - then I say ‘I need to go pee’. I didn’t decide to go pee – conditions arise, energy gathers in the body – event occurs but there is no ‘I’ in control no originator of this action.

6) Anything to add?

Think that’s all…

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK! I'll ask the other guides to take a look.