Looking for a guide

[Ezra]

Hi J,

"I keep coming back to exercising the will"

Can you find this "will" that can somehow be exercised?

I was so fuzzy about what was bothering me with this one, I'm not entirely sure how to proceed. I guess I can only look at 'exercising the will' in my own life and see what I find?
What do you think?

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK have a look at what Rupert Spira has to say -- he puts it nicely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRwvBvnK9E

[Ezra]

That Spira piece was very helpful.
It's interesting how I kept getting stuck on positive exertion of will or positive directionality. As you pointed out we don't see ourselves making choices with the mucky dark stuff.
I'm just going to keep chewing on this. Yeah, that was very helpful.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK you can work on the 'decision maker' in two ways -- energetically like we have been doing -- just notice how dierected energy arises in the body and reaches a tipping ppint where action eventuates -- but there are many energetic responses that don't quite tip into action or are take over by other energetic movements -- say you open the fridge to get an apple for a snack then you notice left-over chocolate cake -- for a moment the energy moves to the chocolate cake and the hand reaches out -- but then energy moves back to the apple -- finally hand picks up apple -- the thought story around this is "I decided to eat an apple because I'm on a diet" -- but can you find an actual self that picked up the apple? Indeed can you find an actual self that is dieting?

You could also try this exercise whith is a bit more "mental" -- like Spira's approach above.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does, focus on focussing, attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath, see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?

[Ezra]

there are many energetic responses that don't quite tip into action or are take over by other energetic movements -- say you open the fridge to get an apple for a snack then you notice left-over chocolate cake -- for a moment the energy moves to the chocolate cake and the hand reaches out -- but then energy moves back to the apple -- finally hand picks up apple -- the thought story around this is "I decided to eat an apple because I'm on a diet" -- but can you find an actual self that picked up the apple? Indeed can you find an actual self that is dieting

?

Yes, absolutely, I get that - I'm seeing that all the time now in my own daily life.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does, focus on focussing, attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath, see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

This is what happened for me; the focus would get distracted away from whatever- the breath for example - by a sensation or a thought, then get pulled away somewhere else and on and on it went. There was no possibility of control.

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?

In my experience today it was sensation, thought, feeling and sound. Thinking was no more in control than anything else and actually, the feeling was that nothing was in control. The focus itself just 'was' in the same way the thoughts, sensations etc were.

J, just want to give you a heads up - I have a sick child at the moment and will be on my own for a the next few days. I'll be working away as best as possible but my posts might be a little short until the weekend. Thanks.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK no worries. JUst keep looking at the 'volition' issue --

can you see that this energetic 'directionality' is a bit like the weather? It's constantly changing in dependence on a vast set of conditions? The weather doesn't 'decide' to be sunny or get bored with being rainy and decide to be foggy. It all just happens.

so look to see -- is a 'decision' an actual event that takes place at a point in time determined by some executive entity (my 'self') or is it just a tipping point in a flow of energy? Part of a natural and wholistic energetic movement like the weather? Just part of life? No-one separate who is living it?

[Ezra]

so look to see -- is a 'decision' an actual event that takes place at a point in time determined by some executive entity (my 'self') or is it just a tipping point in a flow of energy? Part of a natural and wholistic energetic movement like the weather? Just part of life? No-one separate who is living it?

I've been watching decisions for the past few days. Yes, looks like it's subject to conditions and sometimes mysteriously whimsical.
I think I've worked out my issue with what I was calling 'the will". It's simply part of the conditionality around 'decision making', isn't it?

[Jack'n'theBox]

Well "the will" is a concept a bit like "the mind" -- we use it all the time but what does it refer to in direct experience? I no-longer use such vocabulary -- in my experience "will power" simply points to a movement of energy in a certain direction. For example I like to drink -- but if I have more than three glasses I regret it the next day -- so I seldom do. After the third glass, if it's really nice wine and a weekend, there is a strong drive to drink more but then an equally strong drive not to arises and I can watch both movements play out energetically for a while. Occasionally the glass is refilled but usually I stick with the three drinks and have some water instead. It is clear that "will power" is not involved -- energy moves toward drinking or not drinking -- despite what thought might say -- there is no executive self in control.

So if we go back to the question that opened this dialogue -- what comes up in response to this statement now?

"There is no self -- no 'me' or 'I' behind any of our thoughts, feelings or actions -- nor has there ever been"

[Ezra]

So if we go back to the question that opened this dialogue -- what comes up in response to this statement now?

"There is no self -- no 'me' or 'I' behind any of our thoughts, feelings or actions -- nor has there ever been"

Oh gosh, how to answer that..
I've been coming back to this all day. I can't find a'self' anywhere. I assume there never has been a 'me' to find; I have no sense of there ever having been one.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK!

So how does it feel to see this?

Is there anything more to do? Has 'seeking' ended?

[Ezra]

So how does it feel to see this?

Is there anything more to do? Has 'seeking' ended

?[/quote]

Ah, if only it were so simple.
I doubt seeking has ended. Everything feels much the same. The only difference is that I sometimes fall into a sort of 'flow' (a kind of harmony- with a twist of bliss) usually around nature but even this morning, as I was getting the kids ready for school.It has a resonance but is not permeating my life. Otherwise, no changes.
I'm assuming there's something I'm not seeing.
I feel so open to this whole process. I don't find any fear about what might happen or what might change. I'm not seeing resistance. So, what do you think?

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK no worries Carmel you are doing great just keep on with the questioning.

I doubt seeking has ended.

What doubts this? Are there thoughts that there should be something else, something more than this?

Everything feels much the same.

So what should things feel like once the self-view has been seen through? What are your expectations?

The only difference is that I sometimes fall into a sort of 'flow' (a kind of harmony- with a twist of bliss) usually around nature but even this morning, as I was getting the kids ready for school.

Are you expecting seeing through the self view to deliver some kind of permanent state? Is any state ever permanent? What is there that could experience/sustain something permanent?

It has a resonance but is not permeating my life.

Do you have a life? Or is there just life?

I'm assuming there's something I'm not seeing.

What is it that could ‘see’ no-self? Is seeing no-self something that ‘you’ can do?

love J.

[Ezra]

Hi J,
Thanks for the encouragement and great questions.

I doubt seeking has ended.

What doubts this? Are there thoughts that there should be something else, something more than this[/quote]?

You got me - that made me laugh; of course, no 'one' doubts but there are some doubting thoughts. I guess there is the thought that there should be a recognizable 'a-ha' moment.

Everything feels much the same.

So what should things feel like once the self-view has been seen through? What are your expectations?[/quote]

Well, I guess maybe it was about expecting that eureka moment and then, maybe I assumed behaviors and how things were experienced would change gradually after that.

The only difference is that I sometimes fall into a sort of 'flow' (a kind of harmony- with a twist of bliss) usually around nature but even this morning, as I was getting the kids ready for school.

'Are you expecting seeing through the self view to deliver some kind of permanent state? Is any state ever permanent? What is there that could experience/sustain something permanent?'

Well that makes a whole lot of sense - how can a state be permanent?


"I'm assuming there's something I'm not seeing. [/quote]

What is it that could ‘see’ no-self? Is seeing no-self something that ‘you’ can do?"
You know what, this one really resonates. I'm just going to keep chewing on it.

Thanks J. I'm so happy to have these particular questions posed.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK keep on pondering this -- there is nothing that 'you' can do to see through the self-illusion.
The self illusion IS the thought that 'you' need to do something!

Reality is always already 100% right now right here. What you seek for is already what is. It's JUST THIS JUST NOW. 'You' don't have to do anything to see this, except get out of the way.

This video may help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS6Jfrj4qII

[Ezra]

Reality is always already 100% right now right here. What you seek for is already what is. It's JUST THIS JUST NOW. 'You' don't have to do anything to see this, except get out of the way.

I got out of the way, J. Thanks!