2nd Time Around - Guidance Please

[Armstrong]

OK, can you just report on how it is going so far? What have you noticed?

[Armstrong]

And I hope your headache is gone. :-)

[Gary]

OK, can you just report on how it is going so far? What have you noticed?

Ah, I took a break. Will respond later today. And yes, headache long gone :)

[Gary]

Go ahead and look for the "I" a bit more. And then if/when you're stuck, look for the thing that is looking. And please tell me about it, in terms of your direct experience.

Just a few brief things to report while I continue looking...

I can't find anything substantial, any obvious 'I'-thing. I feel a pressure/ache in the head while looking. But I don't experience anything that I would call an 'I'. Also some yucky feelings in the stomach area.

look for the thing that is looking. And please tell me about it, in terms of your direct experience.

It feels like a sensing - a feeling-out. Stating the very obvious there, though, perhaps.

Please take your time. We have all the time in the world. :-)

Good, I might need it.

[Armstrong]

I can't find anything substantial, any obvious 'I'-thing.

That's basically it.

As Sam Harris recently said in an interview, "The same is true about the conventional sense of self — the feeling of being a subject inside your head, a locus of consciousness behind your eyes, a thinker in addition to the flow of thoughts. This form of subjectivity does not survive scrutiny. If you really look for what you are calling “I,” this feeling will disappear. "

Just read that last sentence again; you tried and that was your experience.

From the start, you seemed convinced that you had a problem with too much thinking ("torrent"). Maybe now you think you've got a problem with a weak stomach and a headaches. If so, that's you having a bunch of thoughts and identifying with the story about "I".

Why the stomach and headache? Some would say that the ego has defenses and that it provokes those responses to get you to stop looking. Realizing no-self is the death of the ego and the end of the tyranny of thought. It is important for you to decide - do you want to do this, despite the discomfort? This is why people talk about stepping off a 100ft pole; it takes fearlessness to take that one big step.

Maybe you should look at the book "Gateless Gatecrashers" a bit. People talk about fear, panic and death. You're questioning the basic way you experience reality; fear is a natural response. All those people survived.

If you'd like to continue, could you do the following: try typing a reply to me - to this message.

First, just type some stuff the way you normally would. Try to describe what you see, feel and think - while paying attention to your sight, fingertips/hands, thinking, and head/stomach.

Then, do all that, but also try to find the "I" that is controlling/doing all this. And please describe what that experience is like.

You should notice a shift. Let's explore what that shift is like.

You are basically there. If you can just pay attention and use language to describe what's happening, we'll be done in a moment.

[Armstrong]

Hopefully this gives you solace, "What does not survive scrutiny cannot be real."

If your "I" isn't real now - just look for it now! - it hasn't ever been real. There's nothing to fear about the truth.

[Gary]

First, just type some stuff the way you normally would. Try to describe what you see, feel and think - while paying attention to your sight, fingertips/hands, thinking, and head/stomach.

I see this screen, the window behind it, and trees and sky beyond. I see my fingers moving as I type and the grubby keys they type upon. I feel a little bewildered about whether I am answering this correctly. I'm thinking that this question could be understood/interpreted in different ways. I feel my fingertips as they hit the keys, and a tingling feeling in my hands. My head feels a bit heavy, stomach calm.

Then, do all that, but also try to find the "I" that is controlling/doing all this. And please describe what that experience is like.

Had a big long laugh. It feels hard to follow the question intellectually. Feeling kind of spaced out. Another big laugh. Head is throbbing a little. Feeling fascinated and confused.

[Armstrong]

Excellent.

Is there a "you" that does the typing? Or a "you" that does the seeing?

And the thinking - do are "you" (the you that reads these words) doing the thinking? Or do the thoughts just come to you?

Do "you" have to somehow connect the thoughts to the hands, to get the words out? Or does it just happen?

[Armstrong]

And the words I'm typing - they are just to get you to look at your everyday experience wih fresh eyes.

That worry ahout answering correctly - did "you" have to make it happen? Or was there just a thought like, "I hope I do this right?" Just look for that "I" mentioned in the sentence.

If you cannot find the "I", why on earth do you listen to your thoughts, take them seriously, etc?

[Gary]

...I had to pop out for a moment.

Is there a "you" that does the typing? Or a "you" that does the seeing?

No.

And the thinking - do are "you" (the you that reads these words) doing the thinking? Or do the thoughts just come to you?

Thoughts just appear.

Do "you" have to somehow connect the thoughts to the hands, to get the words out? Or does it just happen?

It just happens.

If you cannot find the "I", why on earth do you listen to your thoughts, take them seriously, etc?

Right. So, let's continue.

[Gary]

If you cannot find the "I", why on earth do you listen to your thoughts, take them seriously, etc?

Can we explore this a little? It seems that even without an 'I', a thought such as ' I should get a haircut' is still a thought that should be taken 'seriously'. Just the 'I' part of the thought is seen differently.

[Armstrong]

Indeed. Try doing a task like walking in to a room to find something to give to someone. Pay attention to your thoughts - are they like commands, which, depending on what step you're at, tell "you" what to do next?

Or try walking in a circle, eyes open, alternately fast and slow. Notice what you see, feel and think. What role thoughts do you think related to switching walking speeds?

[Gary]

I'm off for the night. Going to take a long walk. Thank you very much for your guidance so far. I will respond to your last post tomorrow. Cya then.

[Armstrong]

Great. Excellent looking so far. I hope you have a great walk!

[Gary]

Indeed. Try doing a task like walking in to a room to find something to give to someone. Pay attention to your thoughts - are they like commands, which, depending on what step you're at, tell "you" what to do next?

Haha, yes. Very interesting.

Or try walking in a circle, eyes open, alternately fast and slow. Notice what you see, feel and think. What role thoughts do you think related to switching walking speeds?

Thoughts seem to inform the body as to what to do, and keep track of the task. Like, "Okay, now it's time to speed up","Watch out for the wall".