cosmic joke

[Xain]

Ok.

Is there any control of the body? From the perspective of thought, there is an idea that the body is under some sort of control (by some 'thing', a seperate self). That is the thought.
What is the actual truth?
If there is control, what has it?

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
If there is, what is the chooser or decider?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?

Is there a 'you' doing any form of investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?
Could it ALL be just thoughts?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

the body appears to work perfectly well on its own for most functions, growing, repairing itself, digesting, pumping blood, breathing, reflexes etc performing billions of operations with amazing intelligence

however conscious thinking appears to be involved for directing and moving the body like doing yoga conscious bathing sports driving etc... , the obvious belief is that 'i' thinks and direct the body, but once challenged and inspected there is no discernable or separate 'director' or 'thinker in the bodymind, the direct experience involves thoughts and body moves without clear causation, impossible to say what causes or controls what, many things are happening and the thought stream tries to make sense out of it

it could all be just thoughts as you say, it even makes sense intellectually, then thoughts immediately appear 'i don't see it' and 'there is no shift' therefore 'i have not really seen it only mentalized it as a concept and thats just another belief blablabla' which are all immediately seen as just more thoughts in direct experience, one thought, then another tought, including 'i' thoughts, then there is just this thought stream, including 'i' thoughts and labels, like the idea that a 'mini me' controller inside is superfluous, and 'what's wrong with the sense of me?' and 'the sense of me should not be there' then 'ha resisting what is!' and 'allow resistance' and the thought 'everything is always already seen and allowed by the fact that it arises so where is the problem?' etc thought thought all just thought and deeper or behind just the effortless noticing of this endless display

focus on direct experience feels very efforting, a movement of seeking and separating, that is the experience now

have to stop writing need to light my barbecue now, will cntnue to inquire and look

[Xain]

however conscious thinking appears to be involved for directing and moving the body like doing yoga conscious bathing sports driving etc

Really?
When driving, do you experience conscious thinking saying 'Press Clutch', 'Gear level into first', 'Accelerator pedal down a little', 'Slowly release clutch pedal'. Is such thinking happening?
Have you ever driven somewhere and upon reaching the destination, realised that the entirely journey was pretty much 'automatic'.

Once again, though, we can examine our experience to try to determine what is going on.
Do the 'raising arm' experiment once more.
What 'I' is in control of the arm?
What 'I' is in control of the body?
What can be found?

Is there an 'I' that is 'conscious thinking' anyway?

It could all be just thoughts as you say . . .

What else could it be?
What did you find?

Was there ever a 'you' looking?

then thoughts immediately appear 'i don't see it' and 'there is no shift' therefore 'i have not really seen it only mentalized it as a concept and thats just another belief blablabla' which are all immediately seen as just more thoughts in direct experience, one thought, then another tought, including 'i' thoughts, then there is just this thought stream, including 'i' thoughts and labels, like the idea that a 'mini me' controller inside is superfluous, and 'what's wrong with the sense of me?' and 'the sense of me should not be there' then 'ha resisting what is!' and 'allow resistance' and the thought 'everything is always already seen and allowed by the fact that it arises so where is the problem?' etc thought thought all just thought and deeper or behind just the effortless noticing of this endless display

Is there a 'you' that had a choice in thinking this way?
Could it possibly have been different?

It there a 'you' that can 'let any of it go'?

Has there ever been a separate 'you' to change or affect anything?
Or just the thought of one?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

there is no 'me' to be found, no 'body controller' no 'chooser', no thing, it is all just thought and sense Xain, as a part of a complete experience, there is no way to disprove that and when typing these words even that is seen as just that, a response that is not done by something separate

it is not really difficult to see that the body is on autopilot, in 'my' case it seemed more difficult to see that the thought process or internal 'commentator' is part of the same automatic and uncontrolled happening, events and thoughts are happening and nothing could be otherwise 'but i am still there as a separate entity commenting on all this', this is also seen as just another thought, the next refuge of the me sense is the background 'watcher or observer' of the automatic thought process, and next the space wherein the watching arises and so ad infinitum and ultimately there is 'no thing' to be found

every 'move', sensation or 'story' is instantly seen tru as what arises, in a way every thought is self-defeated at the very start, the mind has lost a lot of its appeal and thoughts are more transparant, simultaneously and at a deeper level every question and problem are quite irrelevant or absurd

the mind stream appears to have fun exploring this extremely bizarre experience wherein there is 'no one' in control, nothing to get, no one to do or choose anything, no one to drive, no one to even passively interact or observe this unfolding life

[eknath]

nothing more to say or ask really, that would sound unreal or hollow, only this dance of life, it feels kind of lighter and relaxed, less noisy and 'letting go', not as an act of a 'me' but just happening, thats the experience now

challenging situations may appear again and i guess that all reactions may kick in including massive frustration anger and dissatisfaction and that will be it

[Xain]

there is no way to disprove that

Logical proof only exist in the realm of thought and beliefs.
What 'I' needs to prove or disprove anything?
What 'I' has beliefs of any kind?

that the thought process or internal 'commentator' is part of the same automatic and uncontrolled happening

It is usually one of the last to be 'seen through'.

If a thought appears about 'I', is it ever actually relating to something 'real' - Something that exists as a seperate entity or 'thing'?
Could suffering thoughts be made to stop?
Could the suffering from the thoughts be any other way?

It can be said that this realisation is simply 'the tip of the iceberg' - Once 'I' is seen for what it is, it doesn't mean anything changes. What can appear to happen over time, though, is that the suffering reduces / dissolves as the realisation appears to 'sink in'.

The enquiry we have been doing, you can do 'yourself'. A thought appears - Question it. Does the thought relate to anything that has a real seperate existence as it is beleived to have?

the next refuge of the me sense is the background 'watcher or observer' of the automatic thought process

You can look at that one as well. Is there a seperate 'watcher' from that which is 'being watched'.
You know the score now :-)

the mind has lost a lot of its appeal and thoughts are more transparant, simultaneously and at a deeper level every question and problem are quite irrelevant or absurd

Yes - It's strange. Once 'this' is seen, many of the questions one had simply don't matter any more.

Do you have any questions at this point?

If you are confident that you have realised that 'I' is always just a thought, then there are a further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process if you are ready for them.

Xain ♥

[eknath]

no further questions your honor, the mind rests and bows down, as much as i would love to pretend otherwise

nothing changes, how simple, obvious and uneventful

lets see if i can undo this realization, the mind really enjoyed this hide and seek interaction

yes you can send your questions, i will be boarding an intercontinental flight in a few hours, roam a desert area and will possibly be out of reach for a few days, not sure when i will be able to respond

[Xain]

Cool, Eknath.
I hope you enjoy the desert :-)

Here are the first three of the six questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

hi xain, back home, little bit jetlagged, will resume replies asap
warm regards, fred

[Xain]

Welcome back, Fred - Good to hear from you.
Have a go at answering the questions when you have a moment.

Xain ♥

[eknath]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
NO! nothing graspable, nothing real, nothing separate, nowhere, never was, a virtual thought construct, just thoughts as a part of direct experience

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.
there is no fundamental difference, nothing changed, nothing gained, this seeing was always already the case before i started this dialogue, it was overlooked

i have to delve into memory to find a difference, there is a shift from living in the head and being 'top heavy' to direct experience, less past and future thinking and more improvisation, more 'nowness', a subtle change in the sense that mind, drama and thoughts are loosing strength and appeal, feels like a punctured rubber boat that is slowly deflating

past few days: a very short moment of relief and laughter after a clear glimpse, none of the freedom or feel good or 'it's all ok' moments that the mind would expect after reading about liberation, rather, strong sensations and emotions that would have been labelled negative and crazy were bubbling up while i was traveling and there was no fighting to repress them, in a way it feels like being helpless/defenseless, vulnerable and fearless at the same time, sensations have gained in strength or maybe they were always that strong and the mind was running away or actively trying to suppress the 'bad' stuff, but that's a lot of clumsy words that do not describe this adequately

there is no sense of having arrived or realized anything, it feels like this is only beginning

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?
there was a YES moment when you wrote: That negative feelings (or more specifically, the 'thoughts' that generate them) will stop. This is unlikely to happen. BUT what is likely to be realised is that the thoughts have no 'truth' or 'reality' to them.
the mind's expectations about what liberation should be or feel like are a hinder, WHAT IS never matches the mind's ideas and wants so this creates and maintains a fictional problem, and at the same time mind is not a problem

strong pointers as well: Is there a 'you' that had a choice in thinking this way? Could it possibly have been different?

i would say that your relentless questioning and pointing to direct experience and not feeding conceptualization in any way, giving the mind absolutely no ground in general, 'works' very well

[Xain]

There is no sense of having arrived or realized anything, it feels like this is only beginning

Sure. In a conventional sense it may well be. There are other things to be looked into if the interest arises other than 'the seperate self'.

I would say that your relentless questioning and pointing to direct experience and not feeding conceptualization in any way, giving the mind absolutely no ground in general, 'works' very well

Thanks - The mind can be a very slippery fish.

Here are the last three of the six questions:

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. Use conventional language here, it's OK.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience if you can.

6) Do you have anything further to add?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

was about to send my answer but the system just threw me out haha, have to rush to work now and will reply again tonite

[eknath]

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. Use conventional language here, it's OK.

the illusion of separate self is a misunderstanding or case of mistaken identity

i wrote about 'a self-reference loop' in one of my earlier posts, thoughts interplaying with other thoughts, feelings and senses and continuously commenting on experience, an overlay or voice-over program, like a virtual 'woody allen' persona, the overly intellectual jewish new yorker addicted to psychiatry and indulging in his neurosis, this self-torture is quite funny when seen as a caricature

this false belief is not only based on what we learn and assume without question, the very nature of mind and language reinforce this wrong view, words and concepts deceive as they define and divide our experience into subject and object, i have heard that there are primitive languages without (pro)nouns and only verbs, their child-like character probably describes our experience more accurately than our sophisticated language, in this respect i really like the terms 'selfing' and 'lifing' encountered in your ebook

when it starts? don't know for sure, i guess it's learned during early childhood, encoded and part of our natural psychological development, and later it can be seen for what it is

how it works? in unfiltered direct experience there is only one unified thing or whole, thoughts included, no separation or division in terms of space, time and knowing can be found, it is open, relaxed, light and all-inclusive, the illusion of me is processing the same experience tru the mental filter, it feels like a very narrow focus, a claustrophobic zooming in, a separating and solidifying effort, always creating two separate things, me/not-me

thoughts always come after the raw experience, reality is always prior to the internal babble and stories

[eknath]

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience if you can.

as i am typing this reply words come up, fingers move, the mind gets engaged and confused, thoughts and comments accompany whatever comes up and is being done, music is playing, sensations of sitting on my chair, body feeling cramped and tired, getting up to stretch and walking wondering what to say, confusion, going to the kitchen eating some fruit salad, all of it spontaneous and uncontrolled

no me to make a choice, to control or let go, to think in a certain way or influence feelings and emotions, decisions are made but no one decides
free will, responsibility, these concepts are only alive as ideas, they only exist in the world of thoughts and these thoughts do not relate to anything real or separate from life unfolding

6) Do you have anything further to add?
no